Phantom 5 Leaks

[With The Birds]

I only cited that incident to respond to Meta4's statements, "Neither have I heard of anyone else having problems because they formatted outside the Phantom. If the Phantom didn't like the card as formatted, it's going to tell you and you can format again in the Phantom anyway.."
It can and has caused problems for me. I'll never do it again. No need to. Quick formatting in the aircraft over the last format in the aircraft works perfectly every time over the last 3 years with over two dozen DJI aircraft . Formatting anywhere else has the potential to lead to problems, as I learned the hard way.

Your not alone in having issues, I suspect it is a quirk in the OSX OS- happened to me more than once

 

[GadgetGuy]

Who knows- we might even get a lens on the next generation camera that projects a large enough image circle to fully illuminate the sensor without gross corner distortion.

We can hope. I'm still impressed by their commitment to improving optical quality, even if pricey, by buying a minority stake in Hasselblad, which has always been the gold standard for the best in camera equipment!

 

[GadgetGuy]

Your not alone in having issues, I suspect it is a quirk in the OSX OS- happened to me more than once

I suspect the in aircraft recommended quick format is very effective when used exclusively. Formatting elsewhere can lead to problems the aircraft quick format cannot overcome, and isn't designed to warn about. After all, who wouldn't follow their advice to only format in the aircraft?

 

[GadgetGuy]

Your not alone in having issues, I suspect it is a quirk in the OSX OS- happened to me more than once

Once bitten, twice shy!

 

[GMack]

The 4gig limitation isnt file system related. Many cameras have the same restriction, including the popular GH4 and GoPro models.

Bad part for me is the FAT32 recording length is limited. Per Wikipedia, FAT32 stores 32-bit file sizes and the maximum you can store in 32 bits is 2^32-1 ~= 4.29e9. 2^32-1 bytes = 4GB - 1 byte.

On my P4 Standard, it drops a few frames when it rolls over to the next 4GB video file. And it only does a maximum of 4GB chunks of FAT32 only too on the 32GB microSD card. The P4 Pro may handle it better in a buffer someplace. I have to time the sequences to less than 7 minutes or maybe hit a frame loss rollover. Annoying.

 

[With The Birds]

Bad part for me is the FAT32 recording length is limited. Per Wikipedia, FAT32 stores 32-bit file sizes and the maximum you can store in 32 bits is 2^32-1 ~= 4.29e9. 2^32-1 bytes = 4GB - 1 byte.

On my P4 Standard, it drops a few frames when it rolls over to the next 4GB video file. And it only does a maximum of 4GB chunks of FAT32 only too on the 32GB microSD card. The P4 Pro may handle it better in a buffer someplace. I have to time the sequences to less than 7 minutes or maybe hit a frame loss rollover. Annoying.

Yes- 4gig is a fat32 limitation for max file size, the phantoms also have a hardware limitation that prescribes the 4 gig max even where exFAT file system is used. Most consumer grade cameras have the same 4gig limit for file size.

 

[Bad Andy]

Interesting why? They list whatever the product was tested with during development- it might be that’s what the camera manufacturer told them.

Maybe. Still interesting.

I do think of the back-and-forth I had with Garmin some while ago when troubleshooting some problems with the MP3 player software in the Zumo. Spoiler: the problem turned out to be a couple of MP3 files that were a bit outside the standards that their crappy third-party MP3 parsing software could handle. The idjits there were insistent from the get-go that it was the 4 GB card that I was using because the unit was only spec'd for 2 GB cards. (or was it 8 and 4? whatever...) After finally fishing my way through the folks staring only at knowledgebase answers I eventually got a tech who said that the larger cards were problematic primarily because they held more files, and that meant more data (songs, albums, etc.) that had to be stored and managed in memory when the thing booted up.

I suspect the in aircraft recommended quick format is very effective when used exclusively. Formatting elsewhere can lead to problems the aircraft quick format cannot overcome, and isn't designed to warn about. After all, who wouldn't follow their advice to only format in the aircraft?

Ummm, you do realize that most of these cards come pre-formatted, right? And they're not coming from Sandisk et al being formatted in DJI drones. Just sayin'...

It can and has caused problems for me. I'll never do it again. No need to. Quick formatting in the aircraft over the last format in the aircraft works perfectly every time over the last 3 years with over two dozen DJI aircraft . Formatting anywhere else has the potential to lead to problems, as I learned the hard way.

When stuff like this comes up I often wonder about correlation/causation. If something like this works it should work repeatably and if it screws up it should screw up repeatably. Should...

I can tell you from memory about how boot records, partition tables, directory tables and file allocation tables work. I was tearing apart PC BIOS Assembler code in the eighties. FAT isn't a big mystery. I'd be incredibly amazed for a FAT32 partition to screw things up like you describe. It fits into the category of improbable (barring a hardware issue or a bad card).

exFAT however is exponentially more complicated. Honestly there's no telling offhand how capable the software is in the aircraft when it comes to handling the various options available in exFAT. But again it's one of those things that ought to work repeatably or fail repeatably. The results of a format should be the same every time.

I have seen instances where some devices will either dislike or behave unpredictably if you try to feed them cards partitioned in various Linux/UNIX filesystems. Even PCs will get pist and won't even let you remove the partition, much less format the storage media.

 

[Drestin Black]

The card is formatted in the aircraft with the correct format based upon the card size inserted.

Yes, but that’s not the best thing in this case.

First, in the days of floppy drives where there was enough “slop” in every single drives alignment that formatting a disk in the drive it was to be used made a lot of sense. Formatting a flash drive has nothing to do with the device on the other end of the interface that issued the command. “Formatting” will be 100.0% identical every time, device to drive.

Next, as you wrote, DJI has chosen that when a format command is issued it examines the capacity of the card: if a 32 GB or less card is detected the It formats using FAT. Cards greater than 32 GB are formatted using ExFAT.

ExFAT is not just an expansion of the old FAT method to handle larger capacities but it also adds other, optional, features. A couple of these features would be of benefit to our purposes.

Those are facts, after this can only come guesses as I cannot find documentation on what DJI does differently if it sees a ExFAT formatted disk vs just FAT — or does it?

It’s the easiest thing of all to simple use the two types of formatting identically (after the format command) so you would only have one piece of code to handle write operations. As, ExFAT has an option to preallocate file in contiguous sectors - does DJI use that feature?

Beyond that, ExFAT has a few built in features that make it a little bit faster and certainly more error resistant than when using FAT. Basically, there is only one reason you would not want to use ExFAT is backwards compatibility. Given that every version of windows from Xp up and every version of Linux and Mac OS have drivers for ExFAT I can’t think of a reason not to use it.

SO: if you have a 32 GB or less in size Card you should format it in ExFAT format using a different device to force the use of the better system. Note: given the price of disks today and that performance increases as the density of the memory does, I cannot think of why you wouldn’t simply make it a rule: always use 64 Gb or larger ExFAT flash drives for use in Phantoms (at this point in their software).

As for formatting before every flight or not: FOR ME I find the risk outweighs the benefits it’s far more likely that I’ll accidentally overwrite something I mistakenly thought i has already downloaded vs the card becomes randomly corrupted. I find no significant (user detectable) performance benefit. To date I’ve never had a format reveal a “bad sector”, over perhaps several hundred disks.

- Happy New Year everyone -

 

[With The Birds]

Bad part for me is the FAT32 recording length is limited. Per Wikipedia, FAT32 stores 32-bit file sizes and the maximum you can store in 32 bits is 2^32-1 ~= 4.29e9. 2^32-1 bytes = 4GB - 1 byte.

On my P4 Standard, it drops a few frames when it rolls over to the next 4GB video file. And it only does a maximum of 4GB chunks of FAT32 only too on the 32GB microSD card. The P4 Pro may handle it better in a buffer someplace. I have to time the sequences to less than 7 minutes or maybe hit a frame loss rollover. Annoying.

I’m waiting to speak to a mate who runs a post production outfit however if I recall correctly he told me some time ago that .AVI files have a max size of 4 gigabytes, it has nothing to do with the file system.

 

[GadgetGuy]

Bad part for me is the FAT32 recording length is limited. Per Wikipedia, FAT32 stores 32-bit file sizes and the maximum you can store in 32 bits is 2^32-1 ~= 4.29e9. 2^32-1 bytes = 4GB - 1 byte.

On my P4 Standard, it drops a few frames when it rolls over to the next 4GB video file. And it only does a maximum of 4GB chunks of FAT32 only too on the 32GB microSD card. The P4 Pro may handle it better in a buffer someplace. I have to time the sequences to less than 7 minutes or maybe hit a frame loss rollover. Annoying.

Time to upgrade to the P4P. No dropped frames ever. Better camera and range, too!

 

[GadgetGuy]

Yes, but that’s not the best thing in this case.

First, in the days of floppy drives where there was enough “slop” in every single drives alignment that formatting a disk in the drive it was to be used made a lot of sense. Formatting a flash drive has nothing to do with the device on the other end of the interface that issued the command. “Formatting” will be 100.0% identical every time, device to drive.

Next, as you wrote, DJI has chosen that when a format command is issued it examines the capacity of the card: if a 32 GB or less card is detected the It formats using FAT. Cards greater than 32 GB are formatted using ExFAT.

ExFAT is not just an expansion of the old FAT method to handle larger capacities but it also adds other, optional, features. A couple of these features would be of benefit to our purposes.

Those are facts, after this can only come guesses as I cannot find documentation on what DJI does differently if it sees a ExFAT formatted disk vs just FAT — or does it?

It’s the easiest thing of all to simple use the two types of formatting identically (after the format command) so you would only have one piece of code to handle write operations. As, ExFAT has an option to preallocate file in contiguous sectors - does DJI use that feature?

Beyond that, ExFAT has a few built in features that make it a little bit faster and certainly more error resistant than when using FAT. Basically, there is only one reason you would not want to use ExFAT is backwards compatibility. Given that every version of windows from Xp up and every version of Linux and Mac OS have drivers for ExFAT I can’t think of a reason not to use it.

SO: if you have a 32 GB or less in size Card you should format it in ExFAT format using a different device to force the use of the better system. Note: given the price of disks today and that performance increases as the density of the memory does, I cannot think of why you wouldn’t simply make it a rule: always use 64 Gb or larger ExFAT flash drives for use in Phantoms (at this point in their software).

As for formatting before every flight or not: FOR ME I find the risk outweighs the benefits it’s far more likely that I’ll accidentally overwrite something I mistakenly thought i has already downloaded vs the card becomes randomly corrupted. I find no significant (user detectable) performance benefit. To date I’ve never had a format reveal a “bad sector”, over perhaps several hundred disks.

- Happy New Year everyone -

I'm not sure the P4P will accept an exFAT formatted 32GB or smaller card. The Supported File Systems specs state FAT32 only for 32GB or less, and only exFAT above 32GB.

 

[GadgetGuy]

Maybe. Still interesting.

I do think of the back-and-forth I had with Garmin some while ago when troubleshooting some problems with the MP3 player software in the Zumo. Spoiler: the problem turned out to be a couple of MP3 files that were a bit outside the standards that their crappy third-party MP3 parsing software could handle. The idjits there were insistent from the get-go that it was the 4 GB card that I was using because the unit was only spec'd for 2 GB cards. (or was it 8 and 4? whatever...) After finally fishing my way through the folks staring only at knowledgebase answers I eventually got a tech who said that the larger cards were problematic primarily because they held more files, and that meant more data (songs, albums, etc.) that had to be stored and managed in memory when the thing booted up.


Ummm, you do realize that most of these cards come pre-formatted, right? And they're not coming from Sandisk et al being formatted in DJI drones. Just sayin'...


When stuff like this comes up I often wonder about correlation/causation. If something like this works it should work repeatably and if it screws up it should screw up repeatably. Should...

I can tell you from memory about how boot records, partition tables, directory tables and file allocation tables work. I was tearing apart PC BIOS Assembler code in the eighties. FAT isn't a big mystery. I'd be incredibly amazed for a FAT32 partition to screw things up like you describe. It fits into the category of improbable (barring a hardware issue or a bad card).

exFAT however is exponentially more complicated. Honestly there's no telling offhand how capable the software is in the aircraft when it comes to handling the various options available in exFAT. But again it's one of those things that ought to work repeatably or fail repeatably. The results of a format should be the same every time.

I have seen instances where some devices will either dislike or behave unpredictably if you try to feed them cards partitioned in various Linux/UNIX filesystems. Even PCs will get pist and won't even let you remove the partition, much less format the storage media.

All the more reason to format the card in the aircraft, and keep doing so, even though it came preformatted by Sandisk, in an acceptable format. I suspect the DJI quick format has limitations that are not properly reported as errors, when the quick format doesn't properly overwrite a format from another incompatible device, leaving the user to conclude everything is fine, even when later recording video. Very similar to the audible shutter sounds when no photos are actually being taken when the buffer is still full! You think you are taking pictures and recording video, because the camera "thinks" it is, but it can't, due to a hardware card writing problem!

 

[Meta4]

I only cited that incident to respond to Meta4's statements, "Neither have I heard of anyone else having problems because they formatted outside the Phantom. If the Phantom didn't like the card as formatted, it's going to tell you and you can format again in the Phantom anyway.."
It can and has caused problems for me.

Have you been able to repeat that condition in testing?
Or was it just a one-off thing?

 

[GadgetGuy]

Have you been able to repeat that condition in testing?
Or was it just a one-off thing?

It was certainly not something I wanted to repeat (lost an irreplaceable 23 minute video of a decommissioned nuclear power plant), so I learned my lesson, and now only format in the aircraft, on top of a previous aircraft format. If I worked for DJI, I might try and replicate it, but I also consider the $65 card ruined and no longer trustworthy. So, it happened once, but that was enough for me. Fact is, it can happen, and it happened to me. The aircraft happily quick formatted the card upon my request (without telling me it didn't like it), and allowed me to "record" the continuous flight video without any error, but upon removal, the card can no longer be read by either the aircraft or the computer, and the Windows computer used for editing wants me to format it to use it! I looked into recovery of the 64GB card and prices start at $500, without any assurances of success. Lesson learned. Card quarantined. The Sandisk Extreme Pro card worked just fine before the apparently destructive format in a Linux computer. YMMV.

 

[Meta4]

If I worked for DJI, I might try and replicate it, but I also consider the $65 card ruined and no longer trustworthy. So, it happened once, but that was enough for me. Fact is, it can happen, and it happened to me.

Fact is, it happened (once) and you've decided what the cause was without checking to determine that was the cause.
You could check without flying or filming a once-only subject.
One case without confirmation isn't conclusive.
If we were hearing of problems turning up from time to time, it might mean something and be worth looking into.
But with only one unconfirmed case, I'll stick with my claim that formatting in the computer won't hurt anything.

 

[Helihover]

Man I keep thinking I’m going to see a new photo release or another leak every time I get a notification for this thread, but no. More crap about formatting cards. Geez, enough all ready. Everyone knows how to properly format a card and if you don’t think so, then go start another thread. This one is about the new P5 and possible leaks, info, and hopefully some pics.

Cmon guys, get back on topic.

 

[Dronefriend]

Man I keep thinking I’m going to see a new photo release or another leak every time I get a notification for this thread, but no. More crap about formatting cards. Geez, enough all ready. Everyone knows how to properly format a card and if you don’t think so, then go start another thread. This one is about the new P5 and possible leaks, info, and hopefully some pics.

Cmon guys, get back on topic.

I strongly agree with this! 80% of the thread is completely off topic.

 

[dirkclod]

I strongly agree with this! 80% of the thread is completely off topic.

I agree and that's were it's going If it don't get back on track.
Off Topic

 

[Bad Andy]

@dirkclod , would it be too much hassle to shift the card stuff into its own thread or a similar existing one?

 

[dirkclod]

@dirkclod , would it be too much hassle to shift the card stuff into its own thread or a similar existing one?

I can delete it all but other than that I can say..
Everyone stay on the OP or don't post . Start another thread on cards or find one of the others already started .

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