Was it a drone? British airways flight

I saw it on the news here. They don't really know what it was. Calls to ban drones. ****. Possibly a small air balloon. How they felt its impact I am unsure.


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Total nube and my second post, so I have obviously no cred.... what the hell, all these experts, no doubt drone legislature will get stricter, the numpties will keep on flapping their gums and no good will come of it all. Here's an idea, stay away from dodgy fly zones, enjoy yourslf in all the brilliant areas... Drones can F#€king fly and stop wining. The drone at heathrow, was only a drone... coz bbc... sky wany it to be! anyone got the vid it shot? i am sure the supposed numpty would of posted it for street cred if it were true. even if it were the low res download to the controller after it got smacked. Get a chuffing grip.
 
All plastic bags are hereby grounded! No more flying plastic bags, even by licensed pilots with a 333 Exemption! :rolleyes:
 
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I wish my phantom could go that high. I'm waiting for the day it can. :)


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Even the wording of the stories are ridiculous and chosen to further thrust negativity on the drones. In nearly every report I've seen they say "a drone struck the plane"! Not one of them says that "the plane struck a drone" which is far more likely what would have happened if it had been a drone.

They also imply that drones striking planes will have only one result - and nobody knows what that will be! In reality, there are about a million different ways in which a drone and airplane could collide - and in the vast majority of them - the drone would be the decisive loser in the incident. There are some type is collisions which could probably cause an airplane to lose an engine - such as a drone being sucked into an engine. Other impacts could take out an antenna or other instrument - maybe even jam an aileron (which might be worse than being sucked into an engine).

But think off all of the other types of collisions - for example, the drone and airplane are flying the same direction - the contact - or collision - in these cases would be little more than a gentle nudge. Even if the drone and plane are traveling at 90 degrees to each other - because of the speed differential, the collisions would be very unlikely to cause much damage.

I'm not defending the drones flying near the airports - however, most collisions between a drone and a passenger airline are not likely to be fatal. Most are likely to be very minor in nature.

As far as I know - DJI voluntarily enforces the no-fly zones and height limits voluntarily, - and some other manufacturers and home grown systems do not. If people want more regulations - perhaps that's one that could be applied across the board?

Apart from that - they need to find and prosecute pilots that put these passenger airlines at risk by flying near airports.

On the flip-side though - how is it dangerous to fly a drone at 50 feet off the ground if you're near an airport? That part of the restriction is ridiculous. People should be able to take aerial shots of their home from 30 or 40 feet up. The airport NFZ's should not be completely restricted but have a very low altitude ceiling enforced. I'm all for rules that make sense and have a reason - but rules that don't accomplish anything bug me.

I had a point to make when I started this post - but I went on too many tangents and just rambled. I've completely forgotten what my point was. Have a good night everyone. :)
 
Love the pictures these media people choose!! Phantom 1! Nice :)


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for example, the drone and airplane are flying the same direction - the contact - or collision - in these cases would be little more than a gentle nudge.


Somehow I think a plane traveling at 500mph would do a little more then nudge a drone traveling at 35mph
 
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Somehow I think a plane traveling at 500mph would do a little more then nudge a drone traveling at 35mph

It would depend on the speeds and vectors of both birds. Within 5 miles of an airport, planes typically don't travel at 500mph.. While taking off and landing and flying circuits, their speed is considerably less.

If the plane and the drone are travelling roughly the same direction, then anything short of a direct hit would merely push the drone out of the way - in fact in most cases, the air disturbance surrounding the plane would push the drone aside avoiding a direct hit anyhow and possibly any physical contact at all...

And remember that not all air traffic is an Airbus or 767! There are still a ton of Dash-8's in service and smaller regional jets!

But this doesn't mean that it's not dangerous or that a drone can't be struck by a plane - just that there many possible combinations of vectors and speeds that the 2 aircraft could be traveling - in which no damage would be caused.

And that also doesn't mean that there aren't still many combinations which would result in the destruction of both aircraft - it just means that all collisions are not equal - and that's the only point I was trying to make since it seems that to the media - any collision at all would result in a catastrophe!
 
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It would depend on the speeds and vectors of both birds. Within 5 miles of an airport, planes typically don't travel at 500mph.. While taking off and landing and flying circuits, their speed is considerable less.

If the plane and the drone are travelling roughly the same direction, then anything short of a direct hit would merely push the drone out of the way - in fact in most cases, the air disturbance surrounding the plane would push the drone aside avoiding any physical contact at all...

This doesn't mean that it's not dangerous or that a drone can't be struck by a plane - just that there many possible combinations of vectors and speeds that the 2 aircraft could be traveling - in which no damage would be caused.

That doesn't mean that there aren't still many combinations which would result in the destruction of both aircraft - it just means that all collisions are not equal.

Suppose we, as pilots do everything right - and are flying within all the right regulations but an aircraft suddenly appears in "our airspace" on what appears to be a collision course? What is the best evasive maneuver to take? Descend immediately? Straight down? Match the course of the other aircraft and fly that direction while descending? Fly away at 90 degrees while descending? Hover and do nothing hoping the other pilot sees you and takes action to avoid you? It's impossible for us to tell how high the other aircraft is from our vantage point on the ground - or if he is ascending, descending or flying level.

An idiotic reply to this question would be "Don't be there in the first place." I think that is obvious to everyone. So assume that that is not an option. A UAV pilot finds himself/herself in the above situation...

What should the pilot do?
(I think it will be it interesting to hear all the different answers that will come back to this question)

I know some of you will have trouble even considering a scenario that you think is not possible. So let me give you a plausible way this could happen. The other plane is a small Cessna and it may have just taken off from a small nearby lake. It may be about to land on a small nearby lake. Or it may be under contract by someone who wants to fly over their own neighbourhood real low to take some pics. So again - as the drone pilot in this scenario - you don't know if he's landing, climbing or just flying around. Also assume that the pilot of the other plane may not be following all of the rules he's supposed to regarding air space and altitude - drone pilots don't have exclusivity on breaking the rules.

So - what would you do? Or what advice would you give to another pilot that found themself in that situation?
Your post deserves its very own thread. Can you create it, and link it here, rather than posting it here alone, where it is sort of off topic, and will get lost? I think the discussion will be of great interest to a lot of us.
 
It would depend on the speeds and vectors of both birds. Within 5 miles of an airport, planes typically don't travel at 500mph.. While taking off and landing and flying circuits, their speed is considerably less.

If the plane and the drone are travelling roughly the same direction, then anything short of a direct hit would merely push the drone out of the way - in fact in most cases, the air disturbance surrounding the plane would push the drone aside avoiding a direct hit anyhow and possibly any physical contact at all...

And remember that not all air traffic is an Airbus or 767! There are still a ton of Dash-8's in service and smaller regional jets!

But this doesn't mean that it's not dangerous or that a drone can't be struck by a plane - just that there many possible combinations of vectors and speeds that the 2 aircraft could be traveling - in which no damage would be caused.

And that also doesn't mean that there aren't still many combinations which would result in the destruction of both aircraft - it just means that all collisions are not equal - and that's the only point I was trying to make since it seems that to the media - any collision at all would result in a catastrophe!

While I find myself agreeing with many of your posts, on this one you are off the mark in my opinion.

Firstly, in a hazard analysis one does not look at the best case outcome or consequence. Yes - there are drone/aircraft collision scenarios that do not have a catastrophic outcome, at least for the aircraft, such as a very glancing impact. So what? It might also miss altogether, which carries even lower consequence. What matters, from the perspective of assessing risk and determining how much it needs to be mitigated, is the worst case outcome. How much damage can be caused by such a collision?

Yes - approaching aircraft are traveling slower than 500 mph - typically around 180 kts (207 mph) descending through 2000 ft, down to a landing speed in the region of 150 kts (173 mph). On takeoff, a typical airliner such as a 737 will take off around 150 kts and climb out through 2000 ft at 180 - 200 kts. So, even subtracting the top speed of something like a Phantom (45 mph) we are looking at an impact speed of 140 - 190 mph. In the worst case it would be 210 - 245 mph.

Even though the aircraft are in subsonic flight, there is no cushion of air moving ahead of the airframe that will push aside a 1.5 kg object. Solid objects, even light ones, do not follow streamlines since force is required to change their momentum. You may have noticed that even tiny insects impact your car windshield. The car analogy is worth taking a bit further, since you can probably imagine the kind of damage even a 75 mph collision with a 1.5 kg plastic/metal object would cause. It would destroy the windshield, which is weaker than an aircraft version, and make a serious dent in sheet metal, but probably not penetrate it.

Aircraft windshields are stronger and more impact resistant than car windshields but, in terms of impact, are intended to resist impacts by compliant objects such as birds, rather than brittle/rigid objects such as drones, which will impart a shorter but higher force profile. I'd give one very little chance of surviving intact with a 200 mph Phantom impact. That would be bad.

Airframe damage, other than the windshield, is probably not too much of a safety issue, but may entail significant repair costs.

Engine impacts are the other significant category, since the screens and turbine blades are also designed with bird impact in mind, and have not been tested, as far as I'm aware, with anything like a drone. No doubt such a testing program is underway though, given the number of reported near misses. Ingestion of relatively small runway debris on takeoff has been known to shut down engines, so I would not be optimistic that the results will be good.

So it is pointless to berate the media for focusing on the possible bad outcomes, since those are the outcomes that matter, and the outcomes that have to be planned for. It's the same reason that they don't diligently report every safe aircraft landing, but always report crashes. The reports of this event, when it was believed that it was a collision, also contradict your assertion that the media portrays all collisions as catastrophic since, by definition, they were reporting a non-catastrophic collision.

You can criticize the original report of a collision, but that is not the fault of the media either - they were just reporting on the official information release by the CAA and Met Police. And it doesn't change the fact that operating UAVs in aircraft flight paths is dangerous, so it is reasonable for the media to cover that issue too. At the apparent rate of increase of drone use by less cautious members of the public, collisions will likely occur unless prevented by robust no-fly zone implementation. Hopefully it won't take a catastrophic one to make the point that laughing at pilots for mistaking other objects for drones isn't funny any more.
 
Funny how all the previous UFO sightings by airline pilots are now suddenly all classified as drone sightings, and immediately deemed credible.:rolleyes:
 
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While I find myself agreeing with many of your posts, on this one you are off the mark in my opinion.

Firstly, in a hazard analysis one does not look at the best case outcome or consequence. Yes - there are drone/aircraft collision scenarios that do not have a catastrophic outcome, at least for the aircraft, such as a very glancing impact. So what? It might also miss altogether, which carries even lower consequence. What matters, from the perspective of assessing risk and determining how much it needs to be mitigated, is the worst case outcome. How much damage can be caused by such a collision?

Yes - approaching aircraft are traveling slower than 500 mph - typically around 180 kts (207 mph) descending through 2000 ft, down to a landing speed in the region of 150 kts (173 mph). On takeoff, a typical airliner such as a 737 will take off around 150 kts and climb out through 2000 ft at 180 - 200 kts. So, even subtracting the top speed of something like a Phantom (45 mph) we are looking at an impact speed of 140 - 190 mph. In the worst case it would be 210 - 245 mph.

Even though the aircraft are in subsonic flight, there is no cushion of air moving ahead of the airframe that will push aside a 1.5 kg object. Solid objects, even light ones, do not follow streamlines since force is required to change their momentum. You may have noticed that even tiny insects impact your car windshield. The car analogy is worth taking a bit further, since you can probably imagine the kind of damage even a 75 mph collision with a 1.5 kg plastic/metal object would cause. It would destroy the windshield, which is weaker than an aircraft version, and make a serious dent in sheet metal, but probably not penetrate it.

Aircraft windshields are stronger and more impact resistant than car windshields but, in terms of impact, are intended to resist impacts by compliant objects such as birds, rather than brittle/rigid objects such as drones, which will impart a shorter but higher force profile. I'd give one very little chance of surviving intact with a 200 mph Phantom impact. That would be bad.

Airframe damage, other than the windshield, is probably not too much of a safety issue, but may entail significant repair costs.

Engine impacts are the other significant category, since the screens and turbine blades are also designed with bird impact in mind, and have not been tested, as far as I'm aware, with anything like a drone. No doubt such a testing program is underway though, given the number of reported near misses. Ingestion of relatively small runway debris on takeoff has been known to shut down engines, so I would not be optimistic that the results will be good.

So it is pointless to berate the media for focusing on the possible bad outcomes, since those are the outcomes that matter, and the outcomes that have to be planned for. It's the same reason that they don't diligently report every safe aircraft landing, but always report crashes. The reports of this event, when it was believed that it was a collision, also contradict your assertion that the media portrays all collisions as catastrophic since, by definition, they were reporting a non-catastrophic collision.

You can criticize the original report of a collision, but that is not the fault of the media either - they were just reporting on the official information release by the CAA and Met Police. And it doesn't change the fact that operating UAVs in aircraft flight paths is dangerous, so it is reasonable for the media to cover that issue too. At the apparent rate of increase of drone use by less cautious members of the public, collisions will likely occur unless prevented by robust no-fly zone implementation. Hopefully it won't take a catastrophic one to make the point that laughing at pilots for mistaking other objects for drones isn't funny any more.

You kind of missed my point but I'll take the responsibility for that and I'm glad you did misunderstand my intentions because there is a wealth of information in your post. I was especially surprised to learn that there is no cushion of air in front of a moving aircraft. I just assumed it would be the same as a boat moving through water. Any idea why they work differently? Is it just because of the density of the medium (air vs water)?

As far as your statement is concerned: "What matters, from the perspective of assessing risk and determining how much it needs to be mitigated, is the worst case outcome. How much damage can be caused by such a collision?" - I agree completely / but my post was in no way shape or form supposed to be a commentary on risk or damage. I thought I had mentioned that specifically - but maybe not. I was working off of no sleep when I posted the message and was all over the place - nearly completely unfocused.

Part of my original intent was to illustrate the opposite of what actually came across - that just because there is/was no visible damage to an aircraft - that does not mean conclusively that contact with a drone did not occur.

The media is completely irresponsible these days and I use every chance I get to take a shot at them. Perhaps - as you point out - it was unwarranted this time - but there have been plenty of times that the media should have been attacked and wasn't so maybe this will help balance things out... :)

Sorry my post was a hot mess - but I did enjoy reading your reply. In the future, I'll try to avoid posting when overtired or when I lack a clear point.
 
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You kind of missed my point but I'll take the responsibility for that and I'm glad you did misunderstand my intentions because there is a wealth of information in your post. I was especially surprised to learn that there is no cushion of air in front of a moving aircraft. I just assumed it would be the same as a boat moving through water. Any idea why they work differently? Is it just because of the density of the medium (air vs water)?

As far as your statement is concerned: "What matters, from the perspective of assessing risk and determining how much it needs to be mitigated, is the worst case outcome. How much damage can be caused by such a collision?" - I agree completely / but my post was in no way shape or form supposed to be a commentary on risk or damage. I thought I had mentioned that specifically - but maybe not. I was working off of no sleep when I posted the message and was all over the place - nearly completely unfocused.

Part of my original intent was to illustrate the opposite of what actually came across - that just because there is/was no visible damage to an aircraft - that does not mean conclusively that contact with a drone did not occur.

The media is completely irresponsible these days and I use every chance I get to take a shot at them. Perhaps - as you point out - it was unwarranted this time - but there have been plenty of times that the media should have been attacked and wasn't so maybe this will help balance things out... :)

Sorry my post was a hot mess - but I did enjoy reading your reply. In the future, I'll try to avoid posting when overtired or when I lack a clear point.

Understood - thanks.

On the "bow wave" question you are correct - it is partly a density issue. Water is both an incompressible medium and around 1000 times denser than air, which is compressible. If you have ever waded across a flowing river then you will recall how much more force is exerted by water moving at a few mph compared to a breeze of similar speed. Combined with the fact that a boat will be traveling at no more than a tenth of the speed of the aircraft in this situation, the deflected flow of dense water around the boat exerts much more force and has far more time to push aside an object than the deflection of air around an airframe.
 

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