It should be noted that the 107 rules only apply to commercial UAS, not hobbyists. But still a good read.
Mountain or gorge flying and 400 ft. ceiling question
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Just wondering, any of you lawyers? If you want to continue thinking about all of this I recommend my article:
Rose, Robert J., What are the FAA Rules for Model Aircraft? (August 15, 2016). Available at SSRN: https://ssrn.com/abstract=2824127 or http://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.2824127
Or, you can visit my occasional legal blog called DOG: Dog — A Drone Blog | RosePatents | Robert Rose
But, I recommend strongly that you just bypass all my legal mumbo jumbo, and go fly and enjoy yourself. Just be a good citizen, and don't provoke anyone. I flew near (not over) one a***'s property and he started shouting and threatened to shoot my drone down. I just flew away and never went near him again. Keep smiling!
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The general rule of thumb, or "recommendation" (don't want anyone's panties to get in a bunch), is to not fly within 5 miles of an airport and to remain below the 400ft recommended ceiling. This keeps you out of the way in most cases. Now, if you get the Part 107 license, you are free to work outside of those limits (with the proper permission and/or waivers) but need to know more information. The VFR Sectional map (a link was provided earlier) would tell you what type of airspace you would be flying in. If it is restricted due to military operations, you would be required to call the base (a name and radio frequency is listed on the map and some websites provide the phone numbers). They could tell you when the site is active or inactive and what traffic patterns would be flown. You learn about all this stuff when studying for the Part 107 exam. With this information, you would know exactly when and where you could fly safely, and most importantly, have permission to do so. When it comes to controlled airspace, think about it like trespassing on someone's property. If you have permission, no problem.
Without the additional info mentioned above, they just want people to stay away so a 5 Mile radius was chosen as a safe zone. This is now built into the DJI GO app, so if you see a warning about being in ANY airspace (yes, including class E and 'unpaved' airports), you "shouldn't" be flying there. As someone mentioned, there isn't anything currently in place to stop you from doing so, but hey, there aren't any laws against being stupid and we see people doing that every day.
Hope this is helpful to some people.
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Oh, so if I'm a hobbyist, i can fly above populated areas, over an airport (heck, right over the runway), 20,000 feet up, right beside a commercial jet? Wow, why would anyone want to get certified if there are NO RULES for those who simply remain ignorant? No, sorry, that's not how it works.
The guidelines are a starting point while the laws are being written. If you ignore them, you risk even stricter laws coming to fruition. The guidelines are a looser interpretation of the regulations commercial pilots need to follow. The difference being that a commercial pilot has the information they need to fly where they need to with proper permission and/or waivers. The hobbiests isn't expected to know anything so the general guidelines, which you agree to online (as in, it's a legal contract at that point), if you register, are there to keep them out of trouble. If they are disobeyed, the registration number provides identification so proper actions can be taken, whatever that may be. There's no jail time associated with the infractions, yet, but if your drone kills someone or causes property damage, you WILL be responsible. Actually, that's regardless of following and safety regulations, but the regulations are there to help avoid those situations.
Be smart people. Use common sense. We've all seen, in these forums, people who go against the guidelines and cause personal injury, property damage, or lose/crash their drone. The point is, if you follow the guidelines, all of this can be avoided. Law or no law, i know we're asking a lot, but please use common sense.
This only post stating flying w/in 5 miles of an airport was yours and it's incorrect. There _is_ a regulation that placing a restriction on this. Flying above 400' is not a regulation and only a recommendation. It is what it is. You can choose to abide by thee 400's "rule" or not. When I point out that it's not a regulation I'm not condoning flying above that altitude. It's just important for people to know the correct information.
If this is how you feel about it, it's good advice.
Part 107 also makes it clear that you can fly 400 feet over any structure if you are with 1000 feet of that structure. The thinking is that you will not run into an airplane as long as you fly within that guideline. IN this case, 'structures' can be made made, or natural, I presume, or else we would all be screwed flying around mountains, etc. This is how I take it, anyway, and it is how I would explain the obvious discrepancies between height restrictions when I launch from the valley floor, and my neighbor launches from his hillside estate....
The 400 ft is from point of take off. You can check out my video on youtube "hancock pass by drone". I started at 12000 feet elevation and then went up to about 500 feet to shoot the vidio.
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No, it will go straight up to whatever you set the RTH setting is.say it is 50 ft, it will go 50ft above your homepoint, then land.
I believe that only applies to controlled airspace.(which includes most cities)
I'm new to this... still waiting for my P3S to arrive in the post.. I've read the manual twice now waiting. I love searching a forum and finding my questions have already been answered years ago. Thank you all for the 'where does 400' begin' clarifications.
What's even better is when I find a gem like this tucked in there...(again, I'm new to drone flying)
I can't thank you enough. Well said. It made me realize my first flight was probably gonna be all get up n go!
What's even better is when I find a gem like this tucked in there...(again, I'm new to drone flying)
I can't thank you enough. Well said. It made me realize my first flight was probably gonna be all get up n go!
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For recreational flying in Belgium I can fly my drone over my own property to a height of 10m (33ft) as long as my drone weighs less than 1kg, I can fly my drone weighing from 1kg to 150kg at a designated model flying terrain and to a height specified for that terrain. I cannot film my neighbours or my neighbour's property without their permission, I cannot fly in the park or on the beach, I can film my family on my property but I cannot film them anywhere else.
Now if I have a klasse 2 licence then I can fly upto 45m (150ft) with a drone that is less than 5kg which has to be registered, and I have to be over 16 and have trained, then passed a practical assessment to do that which costs around €2000 to get, this is for hobby flying outside of the model flying terrain.
Klasse 1 is for drones up to 150kg with a height restriction of 91m (300ft) in addition to the Klasse2 requirements I also would have to take a medical and pass a theory and practical test, this is for professional operators/pilots.
Now if I have a klasse 2 licence then I can fly upto 45m (150ft) with a drone that is less than 5kg which has to be registered, and I have to be over 16 and have trained, then passed a practical assessment to do that which costs around €2000 to get, this is for hobby flying outside of the model flying terrain.
Klasse 1 is for drones up to 150kg with a height restriction of 91m (300ft) in addition to the Klasse2 requirements I also would have to take a medical and pass a theory and practical test, this is for professional operators/pilots.
These rules are set by aviation authority’s
In aviation altitude is a level above sea level usually set on the day/hour by hour as it’s mesured by baromic pressure which fluctuates.
Height is the distance above ground level. I.e. where your standing regardless of sea level this can be measured by gps. As the drones do.
One of the reasons there’s a horizontal limit is to stop people going to the highest point around and flying miles away from it which could easily be 2,000ft above ground where the drone is in some instances. This would magnify the possibility of clashing with aircraft who in turn should be avoiding flying close to hill tops on their route.
The drones (as far as I can tell to date) set a home point on startup. To the drone this point is zero height and zero horizontal distance. All other measures are taken from this datum for the duration of the flight. To use altitude as the measure they would need the ability to set the official QNH (baromic pressure) of the hour which they don’t have, So the drone uses gps instead.
EDIT: see other posts below as altimeters ARE used by drones but don’t use sea level as a datum.
Sorry if it’s a bit long winded.
In aviation altitude is a level above sea level usually set on the day/hour by hour as it’s mesured by baromic pressure which fluctuates.
Height is the distance above ground level. I.e. where your standing regardless of sea level this can be measured by gps. As the drones do.
One of the reasons there’s a horizontal limit is to stop people going to the highest point around and flying miles away from it which could easily be 2,000ft above ground where the drone is in some instances. This would magnify the possibility of clashing with aircraft who in turn should be avoiding flying close to hill tops on their route.
The drones (as far as I can tell to date) set a home point on startup. To the drone this point is zero height and zero horizontal distance. All other measures are taken from this datum for the duration of the flight. To use altitude as the measure they would need the ability to set the official QNH (baromic pressure) of the hour which they don’t have, So the drone uses gps instead.
EDIT: see other posts below as altimeters ARE used by drones but don’t use sea level as a datum.
Sorry if it’s a bit long winded.
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Meta4
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Except that GPS would give you an altitude above sea level, not ground level.
There's no horizontal limit
Drones use a barometer for altitude data, not GPS.
Here's an example of why DJI don't use GPS for altitude data:
Except that GPS would give you an altitude above sea level, not ground level.
There's no horizontal limit
Drones use a barometer for altitude data, not GPS.
Here's an example of why DJI don't use GPS for altitude data:
Not wishing to pick any arguments.......but
Gps gives you a Global Position it’s more precise. Even sea level changes by 20ft twice a day in some areas.
I’d be surprised to find a drone using a barometer to fly level it would change height as the wind speed changes and the pressure drops.
Meta4
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GPS altitudes are always height above sea level - never above ground level.
Tides come and go but there are established datums for sea level and that is what is used by GPS.
It might surprise you but it's no secret that drones use a barometer for their altitude data just like the pilot of a Cessna does.
Air pressure is quite stable over the time of a flight and gives a much more accurate altitude that you can get using GPS.
Look closely at the GPS altitude data shown in the image above to see an example of why the Phantom uses a barometer rather than GPS for altitude data.
The Phantom was >30 metres above the sea, tidal range there is approx 2 metres and I'm pretty sure the Phantom wasn't 18 metres underwater.
I take your word for it.
I use both altimeter and gps when flying the altimeter can’t know where it is above sea level without information regarding the current air pressure of the day in the area it’s flying. This is the case for all pilots including cessna’s and each time they pass on to another radio station they are given a new QNH for the local area. The gps is accurate to within a couple of meters (most of the time) in most weather.
Your photo does suggest that the gps data is wrong Unless of course the operator is flying off a cliff 18M up and the data is referencing the start point not sea level. I fly with the two systems side by side and the gps is usually pretty good at elevation.
STD sea level pressure is 1013 but it’s rarely ever that in reality.
Hmmmmmm. Research time...
EDIT:
Ok, I think I have it. Drones do indeed use an altimeter chip to assist with level flight and height changes, you’re right, but it has no idea where it is with regard sea level. It only knows where it is with regard it’s starting point.
However, for auto landing etc. The altimeter chip is not accurate enough and the sonar or photo sensors are used for accurate control of above ground level.
Where this goes a bit wrong is the drone industry referring to “altitude” when it’s actually working with height. The former being a measure above sea level the later being a measure of vertical distance regardless of altitude.
This also might explain why occasionally drones do a bit of a nose dive, if they are flying low and level and encounter a gust of wind the drop in pressure would trick the drone into believing its altitude has gone up and it might drop to adjust it. Especially over water when the sensors find it difficult to get a lock.
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Meta4
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In the Phantom, it doesn't need any correction or calibration to reference sea level or current air pressure because the altimeter is only indicating relative altitude based on the home point.
The launch point was about 5 metres above sea level.
Similar photos taken in the same place the day before show a GPS altitude that about 20 metres higher than actual altitude.
In the USA, WAAS is available to give (fairly) accurate altitude data from GPS.
But it's not available in the rest of the world so GPS altitude data anywhere else can be +/- 200 feet and more which is why the Phantom doesn't use GPS altitude data for flight functions.
I edited above before seeing your post. I stand corrected (if a little perplexed)
It was the use of altitude instead of height that was throwing me. But as you say it’s relative altitude (height) that’s being recorded.
Have to say I haven’t experienced this poor elevation while using GPS in the UK so maybe we’re talking different chip sets or something.
Learn something new every day......
Thanks.
I have an old airplane altimeter installed in my 4x4 and the slightest adjustment on the barometer knob can alter the reading by hundreds of feet.
