Airport MGR said no permission granted to fly my Phantom!

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Hello,

TL;DR - Just bought a Phantom 3 standard and thinking about returning it.

As a new owner of a Phantom 3 standard I wanted to add this to the forum and get some feedback. I live in Staten Island one of the (5) boroughs of NYC and 4.1 miles away from Linden Airport in New Jersey and 5.9 miles away from Newark Liberty, according to B4YouFly. I have (2) Heliports in the same area I wish to fly my new Phantom. So, I decided to email the airport and ask what number I need to call when I fly my quadcopter; its a public airport and no tower. The manager emails me and says:

  • "You may not operate within 5 miles of a public use airport."
I reply with:
  • Thank you for the quick reply. However, it does not state I cannot fly; only that I need to contact the tower if present. Please see attached image (B4UFly app screenshot). Unless I missed something I can legally fly in Staten Island, if I call and let you know.
His Reply:
  • I am unclear as to what you are looking at, however as a public use airport we do not authorize such activities irrespective of being notified. I believe there are areas of Staten island that are 5 miles away from Newark International and Linden Municipal airports.

This starts an email dialogue and write a lengthy email to see if we can clear up some confusion and better understand my contacting him and my intentions with my Phantom. He then simply ends the conversation with: "Also, Linden and Newark are within Class "B" airspace. & You are still within class B airspace."

I ask experienced Pilots here. What does this mean? Does he have the authority to say no and prevent me from flying my Phantom?

I want to be able to fly in certain areas of the island but to be honest it appears that owning a Phantom anywhere close to NYC is not worth it. I don’t mind traveling to other areas to fly with my son, but I have a Large field of private property I am authorized to be on and use that I would like my son and I to use on the weekends.

-Phantom Newbie
 
Thank you. I will keep that doc on my phone.

That being said. How should one handle a situation when the small airport manager simply doesn't care or want to "establish a mutually-agreed upon operating procedure with the airport operator."

I was friendly, I was clear, I stated only within the line of site of the phantom, and 100-400 ft up. He just didn't care to hear it and cut it short with his Class B airspace reply.
 
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Hmm, so to be clear anything within 5 miles from me is considered Class B airspace. Therefore is a no go.
 
Hmm, so to be clear anything within 5 miles from me is considered Class B airspace. Therefore is a no go.

Linden is under Class B airspace that starts at 800 ft, not at the surface. The surface portion of the Class B airspace associated with Newark extends out 4 NM - not as far as Linden. The immediate vicinity of Linden, at the surface, is uncontrolled Class G.

 
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The information from the FAA is not clear on this subject. There is slightly conflicting information but both appear to indicate that you both need to agree on the flight of the UAV. Certainly it could be argued that you _only_ need to inform them of the flight. However, IMHO you would loose this argument if it was pushed. The tower is responsible for the safety of manned aircraft within that 5 miles so I suspet this argument is always going to win and be used to say that they can prevent UAVs from flying as a "safety" issue.

Personally, I'd obtain their phone number and call then to discuss or even set up a time that you might be able to meet with this person. Having a face to face or even a personal conversation is much better then emails. I think there is a good chance that this might serve to solve a lot of the issues that an email does not.

Edit: For example, perhaps letting this person know that they can require that you not be within xx miles and only fly up to a certain height. That you'd agree to this. So on and so forth.
 
Linden is under Class B airspace that starts at 800 ft, not at the surface. The surface portion of the Class B airspace associated with Newark extends out 4 NM - not as far as Linden. The immediate vicinity of Linden, at the surface, is uncontrolled Class G.


What's the +05 designation? Never saw that before.
 
Linden is under Class B airspace that starts at 800 ft, not at the surface. The surface portion of the Class B airspace associated with Newark extends out 4 NM - not as far as Linden. The immediate vicinity of Linden, at the surface, is uncontrolled Class G.

And Linden has no control tower. So once you have notified, unless someone can give you a legitimate safety reason not to fly at a particular time/place, the manager has no reason/excuse to tell you not to fly. Notice that the mutually agreed to procedures in 336 only applies to regular flights from a permanent location. Many RC clubs have fields inside the 5 mile ring and this applies to such operations. I would contact them , notify them of where/when and how high you intend to fly and ask if there are any special or unusual conditions or activities at those times and locations that you should be aware of. Keep full records of the conversations/ emails, etc. and go fly. Later, you may even want to forward your records to the FAA and ask them for an opinion.
 
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If you are in the appropriate airspace to fly legally, a call to the tower or operator is to provide them the information that you are flying, not to ask for their permission. AFAIK.

I think trying to have an extended dialog with someone who doesn't understand the facts, especially when there are gray areas is a waste of time. From the airport's point of view, erring on the side of caution (saying no) puts them at NO risk. The airport isn't going to get fined, the manager isn't going to lose his job and you won't be suing them. If they say yes and something happens (say a plane strike) and they were wrong....then the problems start.

My opinion only
 
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Hmm, so to be clear anything within 5 miles from me is considered Class B airspace. Therefore is a no go.
Generally you'll only need to worry about the inner circle of Newark's inner circle of class B.

1488147946232.png

1488148094489.png


There's also an area along the southeast coast of the island which is a national park/monument (Ellis Island)... but lots of class G airspace for you to explore.

1488148243229.png


Sent from my SM-T813 using PhantomPilots mobile app
 
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Interesting information thank you all for replying today. I have a lot to learn looking at these charts. I was concerned because I want to enjoy my new P3std. and not be a douche pilot. I thought by asking for the number to call when I fly was a good start, instead I got the mgr. curt responses knowing I was novice to the hobby. Sure, going to the Linden airport may have been a good idea however, after the emails, I don’t think it will make a difference.

If I may: does Class G mean 700 AGL in this case (non towered airport)? TBH the location I wanted to fly occasionally is private property (I have full authority/permission to fly on) a great baseball diamond size field to enjoy the P3 always in site and anywhere between 100-400ft.

My son and I don’t mind traveling around looking for some good spots to fly legally on the island, Brooklyn, even NJ… this was just going to our home base. A quick spot to get to, and a secluded place where we can hangout, eat lunch, and recharge the equipment. Father son time :)

So, it looks like I’m going to keep the P3std. Unbox it now, register it, and in a couple of weeks go flying.

Thanks I’m happy I decided to post this today. I feel a little better now. If anyone has anything more to share or advise it would be greatly appreciated. I hope to share more when I finally get some flight time.

-Louis
 
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The airspace above Linden is class g up to 800 ft. That's what the blue 70/08 on the chart means. No tower there would normally mean all class g. But, it is also under the class B space of Newark and that takes precedence. As long as you stay away from the inner ring at Newark, you're ok.
 
Interesting information thank you all for replying today. I have a lot to learn looking at these charts. I was concerned because I want to enjoy my new P3std. and not be a douche pilot. I thought by asking for the number to call when I fly was a good start, instead I got the mgr. curt responses knowing I was novice to the hobby. Sure, going to the Linden airport may have been a good idea however, after the emails, I don’t think it will make a difference.

If I may: does Class G mean 700 AGL in this case (non towered airport)? TBH the location I wanted to fly occasionally is private property (I have full authority/permission to fly on) a great baseball diamond size field to enjoy the P3 always in site and anywhere between 100-400ft.

My son and I don’t mind traveling around looking for some good spots to fly legally on the island, Brooklyn, even NJ… this was just going to our home base. A quick spot to get to, and a secluded place where we can hangout, eat lunch, and recharge the equipment. Father son time :)

So, it looks like I’m going to keep the P3std. Unbox it now, register it, and in a couple of weeks go flying.

Thanks I’m happy I decided to post this today. I feel a little better now. If anyone has anything more to share or advise it would be greatly appreciated. I hope to share more when I finally get some flight time.

-Louis

The answer to your question depends on exactly where you are. Directly over Linden is Class G to 700 ft, Class E from 700 - 800 ft, Class B from 800 - 7000 ft, then Class E from 7000 - 18000 ft. But remember that under recreational rules you still have to notify an airport if you are flying within 5 miles, even if you are in Class G airspace.
 
The answer to your question depends on exactly where you are. Directly over Linden is Class G to 700 ft, Class E from 700 - 800 ft, Class B from 800 - 7000 ft, then Class E from 7000 - 18000 ft. But remember that under recreational rules you still have to notify an airport if you are flying within 5 miles, even if you are in Class G airspace.
There is no Class E around Newark. Class E (700 ft) is depicted by magenta shading. The space below the Class B is all Class G.
 
AEA NY E5 is all Class E above 700 ft according to the charts.
Yep, see that. Had to pull up a chart with a wider view.
 
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I'm surprised JFK isn't a factor here.

Somewhere on FAA site I read that an airport can object but can't prohibit. However the objection can lead to issues down the road.
It sounds like that person you spoke with is unclear of the rules and guidelines. Perhaps there's someone else there you can speak with? Perhaps even contact FAA for clarification?
NY is going to be tricky.
Perhaps some parks in queens over 5 miles out from LGA and JFK? Cunningham park comes to mind.

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You are free to fly in Class G airspace and in most cases class E. Class A thru D get trickier and are best avoided. For more info on the different airspaces, take some time and read through this...

Sarah Nilsson - UAG Test Prep


Remember that as a hobbyist, you are limited to 400 feet above ground level. Fo

Sent from my SM-T330NU using PhantomPilots mobile app
 
You are free to fly in Class G airspace and in most cases class E. Class A thru D get trickier and are best avoided. For more info on the different airspaces, take some time and read through this...

Sarah Nilsson - UAG Test Prep


Remember that as a hobbyist, you are limited to 400 feet above ground level. Fo

Sent from my SM-T330NU using PhantomPilots mobile app
This goes around and around, but it is recommended that hobbiest stay below 400ft. Commercial pilots are required to stay down there. Several threads here that have thrashed that to death.
 

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