Wedding video question

[doktorinjh]

Your saying i can not do it and it would be against the law and i should not do it. I would not be doing it for profit or for anything but recreation and to capture something for my daughter.

You're going to FAA jail and being fined millions of dollars. Yeah, some of the interpretations here are ridiculous.

 

[BigAl07]

So with what everyone is saying here is. Lets say my daughter is having some sort of party/event and asks me her dad to bring my drone and film some of it for her. Your saying i can not do it and it would be against the law and i should not do it. I would not be doing it for profit or for anything but recreation and to capture something for my daughter.

It's YOUR daughter... not your daughter's friend etc. It's for YOUR enjoyment/pleasure not intended for someone else (even though you can share it). It's YOU flying for your daughter's event and you are capturing it for YOUR enjoyment.

If the school asked you to fly it for them then you are outside of YOUR hobby bubble.

If you're going to play in the FAA's sandbox (National Airspace System) then you're supposed to abide by the laws associated to the NAS. Do you have to? NEGATIVE! But could there be repercussions? Maybe (most likely not but still maybe).

It's not rocket science but for some reason (I think because you don't want to believe it's true) some of us just can't come to grasp that we are playing in the NAS and as such we have laws/rules we are to follow. Just because you "claim" something to be hobby/recreational does not make it so. I "claim" to be a handsome man whom ladies can't resist but we all know that's not the case except in my own imagination.

 

[Nightwolf]

But could there be repercussions? Maybe (most likely not but still maybe).
.

The point is the repercussions, when and if they come, will affect all of us.

 

[BigAl07]

As always, BigAl, the voice of reason. Thank you. On a related note, please tell me the minimum age for Part 107 is something like 50 or 60, PULL-EASEEEE?

Fly under the Small UAS Rule

Remote Pilot Certification

• Be at least 16 years old
• Pass an aeronautical knowledge test at an FAA-approved knowledge testing center*
• Undergo Transportation Safety Administration (TSA) security screening

 

[BigAl07]

The point is the repercussions, when and if they come, will affect all of us.

@Nightwolf You nailed it!!

The FAA has already stated this week that Section 336 (Hobby/Recreational Bubble) needs to be re-visited. This could have a PROFOUND impact on all of us Hobby/Recreational flyers in the USA. If Section 336 is rolled back you can bet your bottom dollar the FAA will enact some heavy regs on all of us which I predict could be very similar to Part 107 is. There's no reason why a hobbyist should have fewer regulations than a Civil Operator flying the same aircraft in the exact same airspace.

Here's a link to where I linked to it earlier this week:
Acting FAA Adminstrator Elwell: 336 must be revisited

 

[Fordie]

The Op has been given great, sound advice. Unfortunately some people will ask a question on a forum and then choose the answer that justifies their own decision. The Internet is great for that. However "some guy said it was okay on the forum" won't carry much weight in court.
The comment "People bring cameras to weddings all the time. Just so happens yours can fly" i think is a dangerous attitude to have to sUAV or drones. Yes it's a camera but it's a camera that carries much more responsibility and risk.

 

[N017RW]

It’s entertaining to read the creative hypotheticals.
Many think they have found the ‘killer loophole’ yet despite the seemingly general requirements, 107 is pretty ‘airtight’.

 

[doktorinjh]

Many think they have found the ‘killer loophole’ yet despite the seemingly general requirements, 107 is pretty ‘airtight’.

I really hate to belabor the points and discussion being had, but it's hard to ignore that in one breath someone is saying that flying your daughter's wedding is recreational, but your cousin's is commercial. Taking a drone selfie of your friends is recreational, but taking one of some strangers and emailing it to them is commercial. Nowhere in the Part 107 or 336 rules does it drill down into the designation of who's related close enough to qualify for recreational use.... Here's what it does say (Pages 9-11):

The statute requires model aircraft to be flown strictly for hobby or recreational purposes. Because the statute and its legislative history do not elaborate on the intended meaning of “hobby or recreational purposes,” we look to their ordinary meaning and also the FAA’s previous interpretations to understand the direction provided by Congress. A definition of “hobby” is a “pursuit outside one's regular occupation engaged in especially for relaxation.” Merriam-Webster Dictionary, available at www.merriam-webster.com (last accessed June 9, 2014). A definition of recreation is “refreshment of strength and spirits after work; a means of refreshment or diversion.” Id. These uses are consistent with the FAA’s 2007 policy on model aircraft in which the Agency stated model aircraft operating guidelines did not apply to “persons or companies for business purposes.” See 72 FR at 6690.

Any operation not conducted strictly for hobby or recreation purposes could not be operated under the special rule for model aircraft. Clearly, commercial operations would not be hobby or recreation flights. Likewise, flights that are in furtherance of a business, or incidental to a person’s business, would not be a hobby or recreation flight. Flights conducted incidental to, and within the scope of, a business where no common carriage is involved, generally may operate under FAA’s general operating rules of part 91. Although they are not commercial operations conducted for compensation or hire, such operations do not qualify as a hobby or recreation flight because of the nexus between the operator’s business and the operation of the aircraft.

I have a very difficult time believing that OPs situation is anything but a "pursuit outside one's regular occupation" that is not in "furtherance of a business, or incidental to [his] business." That's what the FAA has declared and that was the question that was asked.

 

[Jchlkw]

It's YOUR daughter... not your daughter's friend etc. It's for YOUR enjoyment/pleasure not intended for someone else (even though you can share it). It's YOU flying for your daughter's event and you are capturing it for YOUR enjoyment.

If the school asked you to fly it for them then you are outside of YOUR hobby bubble.

If you're going to play in the FAA's sandbox (National Airspace System) then you're supposed to abide by the laws associated to the NAS. Do you have to? NEGATIVE! But could there be repercussions? Maybe (most likely not but still maybe).

It's not rocket science but for some reason (I think because you don't want to believe it's true) some of us just can't come to grasp that we are playing in the NAS and as such we have laws/rules we are to follow. Just because you "claim" something to be hobby/recreational does not make it so. I "claim" to be a handsome man whom ladies can't resist but we all know that's not the case except in my own imagination.

Was just trying to find clarity in what everyone was going back and forth about. Because i only fly for fun i am retired and only do it as hobby and am very new to the drone world. Trust me when i see these people who do these dumb acts with a drone all i think is another idiot who is going to ruin it for us who do it where when and how we are aloud to.

 

[Meta4]

I have a very difficult time believing that OPs situation is anything but a "pursuit outside one's regular occupation" that is not in "furtherance of a business, or incidental to [his] business." That's what the FAA has declared and that was the question that was asked.

Many in the drone community have a tendency to define "commercial" in the most fundamentalist ways and bend and twist everything to do it.
As long as the drone flying is done safely and doesn't break any rules the FAA would have no concern about whether the flyer shares his images with the wedding couple or not.
There will likely be lots of people on the ground with their own cameras who will also share their pictures.
But that doesn't mean they are engaging in commercial photography.
On the contrary, I'd say they are using their cameras in an entirely recreational context.
There's nothing wrong with sharing your work.
What the FAA is concerned with is people engaged in commercial flying and aviation safety.
Not who you share some pictures with.

 

[LarBear360]

Many in the drone community have a tendency to define "commercial" in the most fundamentalist ways and bend and twist everything to do it.
As long as the drone flying is done safely and doesn't break any rules the FAA would have no concern about whether the flyer shares his images with the wedding couple or not.
There will likely be lots of people on the ground with their own cameras who will also share their pictures.
But that doesn't mean they are engaging in commercial photography.
On the contrary, I'd say they are using their cameras in an entirely recreational context.
There's nothing wrong with sharing your work.
What the FAA is concerned with is people engaged in commercial flying and aviation safety.
Not who you share some pictures with.

Amen.

 

[African wildlife]

Here in the UK, there have been a number of seemingly "innocent" or innocuous cases of drone hobbyists getting a knock-on-the-door from policemen - resulting in sizeable fines. Many people's idea of "justice" differs from the actual reality of "the law is the law".

Comments made above about some people only hearing what they want to hear hit the nail on the head. This is common psychological behaviour.....unfortunately.

In the case of drones, the chances of getting into trouble with the law/authorities is heightened because of a sizeable anti-drone public opinion. I was surprised a few months ago by one of my oldest friends having very strong anti-drone views (regarding hobbyists, not how we use a drone as a work tool). In the minds of many, one negative is remembered more than ten positives. Experienced forum members often remind us all of the need for personal responsibility when flying. Those who act irresponsibly will likely prompt a further change in regulations to the detriment of the many.

 

[len750]

You can not "Hobby/Recreation" FOR another person. If your intent is to "Create something to give away" you have now pierced the Hobby/Recreation/336 bubble and fully liable to all of part 107 rules and regulations.

It's NOT ABOUT MAKING MONEY people. It's much bigger than that. Obviously "making money" and "furthering of a business" is one path to pierce the 336 protective bubble but there are many more.

If you are not flying 100% completely within the 336 bubble (and flying FOR someone else even as a good gesture is not hobby/recreational) then you default to a Civil Operation. Civil operations are anything outside of 336 and include: Making Money, Flying for your work, Search & Rescue (SAR), and doing anything that is not 100% hobby/recreational. I repeat you can NOT Hobby/Recreational for another person.

One key difference is if you want to shoot this for your own personal enjoyment and for your own person viewing later that's fine. But if you are doing it to create something to give to someone else you are outside of your protective bubble. The line had to be drawn somewhere and regardless where it's drawn we will always find "Exception" to the rule but that's our problem. The law is clear on this and it's codified as such.

Dang It !!! Good Bye cruel world! I'm going to prison for a loooooong time. I took photos at our Niece's wedding in Florida last year. I was sharing them with everyone. It's one of my hobbies. People like the way my photos turn out. All of then were on my Samsung actually. Been doing it for a while. Everyone was sharing with everyone! Happens at every wedding, on every continent. So, this is the same thing. The EXACT same thing! I guess I'll say hi to Pharma Bro for everybody.

 

[DougAles]

If I take my drone to do a wedding video for a family member in which case friendship is the only condition... No money or business here. Do I need to have the 107 certificate?

Macoman, I did what you are intending to do. I have expereince in this matter.

I don’t wish to argue with BigAl, he can ban me after all. So, rather starting a fight that I can not possibly win, I’ll state it this way. In the USA, not one person has ever been fined for doing what you propose. Not one.The fines are for other things, but not from flying for free where your output has no comercial interest intent. BigAl can’t possibly argue with this one.

I will leave arguing theoretical possibilities for the lawyer wannabes here that probably also would argue a 7 year old girls front lawn lemonade stand is illegal becasue she does not have comercial insurance, health inspection, sellers permit, doesnt collect sales tax, etc. They may even argue the little girl is a danger, so call out the SWAT team. OMG, our society is going to heck!

By the way, I’m an Americain that was raised in a day that when I was a kid, if a kid showed up on his bicycle wearing a bicycle helmet we would take a stick and hit his helmet until he took it off. We didn’t get “Particiapton trophies” and we were not woosies.

BIGAl wanting MORE laws and MORE restrictions then we already have? Thats as dumb as not knowing a liberal girl with a bump in her crotch is actually a dude.

Macoman, I do have suggestions that are specific to drone videography for a wedding event, but posting it here would take this comment off-topic. Should you start a new thread seeking drone videography advice specific to weddings, I’d welcome the opportunity to share what I learned.

 

[lardron]

You can't hobby/recreational FOR someone else.

Do you really think that if we can't volunteer our time, equipment, and services to look FOR someone lost in the wilderness (SAR) because it's not hobby that it would be ANY different shooting a wedding FOR someone? You see the intent is FOR SOMEONE ELSE! That's what excludes you from Section 336.

As I stated call you FSDO and propose the question to them exactly as the OP did and get their input. That's the only one that matters... PERIOD!

YES YOU CAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[meridklt]

Here in the UK, there have been a number of seemingly "innocent" or innocuous cases of drone hobbyists getting a knock-on-the-door from policemen - resulting in sizeable fines. Many people's idea of "justice" differs from the actual reality of "the law is the law".

I have never read of one single case that could fall into the "seemingly innocent or innocuous cases" category which resulted in a prosecution and would be interested to see a link or links to these cases.

 

[lardron]

So with what everyone is saying here is. Lets say my daughter is having some sort of party/event and asks me her dad to bring my drone and film some of it for her. Your saying i can not do it and it would be against the law and i should not do it. I would not be doing it for profit or for anything but recreation and to capture something for my daughter.

absolutely agree with you !!!

some conclusions from
Copyright © 2015 Know Before You Fly


What is recreational use of sUAS?


The recreational use of sUAS is the operation of an unmanned aircraft for personal interests and enjoyment. For example, using a sUAS to take photographs for your own personal use would be considered recreational; using the same device to take photographs or videos for compensation or sale to another individual would be considered a commercial operation. You should check with the FAA for further determination as to what constitutes commercial or other non-hobby, non-recreational sUAS operations.


what initially exposed by macoman, is not for compensation nor sale.... isnt it ?

com·pen·sa·tion
ˌkämpənˈsāSH(ə)n/
noun

1. something, typically money, awarded to someone as a recompense for loss, injury, or suffering.
   "seeking compensation for injuries suffered at work"
   synonyms: recompense, repayment, reimbursement, remuneration, requital, indemnification, indemnity, redress; More
   
   
   • the action or process of awarding someone money as a recompense for loss, injury, or suffering.
     "the compensation of victims"
   • NORTH AMERICAN
     the money received by an employee from an employer as a salary or wages.
     plural noun: compensations

sale
sāl/
noun
noun: sale; plural noun: sales

1. 1.
   the exchange of a commodity for money; the action of selling something.
   "we withdrew it from sale"
   synonyms: selling, vending; More
   
   antonyms: purchase
   • a quantity or amount sold.
     "price cuts failed to boost sales"
   • the activity or business of selling products.
     "director of sales and marketing"
2. 2.
   a period during which a retailer sells goods at reduced prices.
   "a clearance sale"
   synonyms: deal, transaction
   "they make a sale every minute"
   antonyms: purchase
   • a public or charitable event at which goods are sold.
   • a public auction.

 

[lardron]

If I take my drone to do a wedding video for a family member in which case friendship is the only condition... No money or business here. Do I need to have the 107 certificate?

macoman, dont worry ... be happy !!!!
do it. take care when flying close to people, as always must be. Check you batteries, your bird, your card to do not loose your images... have fun!!!
The law is the law! It is clear that you are not offending any.
regards.

 

[Fordie]

I can see both sides of the argument so what I would say is go speak with the venue. After all it's their property If they give you permission well great. However I would be suprised if they agreed without asking to see your insurance etc. Then phone your insurance company and ask them if they will cover you to film a friends / family members wedding. Interested to know the answer but I think I could guess.
All this nonsense about its just a camera..
Its not just a camera it's a sUAV with a camera. It has rules that don't apply to cameras. It has risks that are not associated with cameras. Nikon slrs don't fall out of the sky if the battery drops a cell or looses a prop (well I've not seen it lol)
I would never film a wedding for a family member with the drone without the correct permissions in place.
Perhaps I'm over cautious but thats me. I see the risks and its entirely your choice whether you want to take those risks.
But yep let's go to the park or beach and film, photograph stuff or each other for fun.. Absolutely. Two different things in my humble opinion.

 

[DougAles]

View attachment 96115

I can see both sides of the argument so what I would say is go speak with the venue. After all it's their property If they give you permission well great. However I would be suprised if they agreed without asking to see your insurance etc. Then phone your insurance company and ask them if they will cover you to film a friends / family members wedding. Interested to know the answer but I think I could guess.
All this nonsense about its just a camera..
Its not just a camera it's a sUAV with a camera. It has rules that don't apply to cameras. It has risks that are not associated with cameras. Nikon slrs don't fall out of the sky if the battery drops a cell or looses a prop (well I've not seen it lol)
I would never film a wedding for a family member with the drone without the correct permissions in place.
Perhaps I'm over cautious but thats me. I see the risks and its entirely your choice whether you want to take those risks.
But yep let's go to the park or beach and film, photograph stuff or each other for fun.. Absolutely. Two different things in my humble opinion.

While you are on the phone with Mr/Mrs Insurane, be sure to mention this is non-comercial a.k.a. personal / hobby. Oh, ask them what happens if you are flying ANYWHERE.

If you have a personal umbrella liability policy like I do, your covered. If you have no relevant insurance, well then your not covered.