near miss with military helicopter

[Pharm]

You didn't egg him on to try it out to make sure it actually works?

I almost asked him to demonstrate it for me but if I had and he crashed, I'd be laughing really hard. He was much bigger than me and I thought my laughter might throw him into a homicidal rage. I wouldn't be able to run away from him because I'd be laughing too hard.

 

[Meta4]

The helicopter was flying VERY low and very fast. Had to be below 400 feet.

It's a common mistake to believe that planes must stay above 500 feet.
There are many situations where they can legally fly much lower.
Here are the actual rules - note C & D particularly

§ 91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General.
Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:
(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.
(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.
(d) Helicopters, powered parachutes, and weight-shift-control aircraft. If the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface—
(1) A helicopter may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section, provided each person operating the helicopter complies with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the FAA​

Since I was flying with permission in a zone ok to fly, could I have got in trouble?

You probably wouldn't get much mileage out of saying that the lifeguard said you could fly there.

 

[Crack The Sky]

this weekend I was flying at a beach in Corona Del Mar. It is not in a no fly zone, and I talked to a lifeguard to get permission. She said that she had recently spoke to the police about drones and they told her as long as you are not flying over people or disturbing wildlife ( there are a lot of birds on the rocks and arches) that it was perfectly legal.
So, I went to take a pan up shot from the tide pools and I took it straight up to 390 feet. I was under the 400 foot limit and then my butt puckered. I heard the thud thud thud of a helicopter. As I tried to bring it down ASAP, a military helicopter came up over the cliff. * the beach is down below some high cliffs.
The helicopter was flying VERY low and very fast. Had to be below 400 feet.
I didn't want to move my P3P because I figured I may fly into the helicopter and most likely, if it was in its way, it would maneuver around it.
So, I left it where it was and it was a real close near miss.
I quickly brought it down and left the beach.
Since I was flying with permission in a zone ok to fly, could I have got in trouble?

1.Corona Del Mar beach is less then (5) miles from Orange County (SNA) airport and you are required to report to the controlling agency prior to conducting your flight. If you had, the chopper would most likely have been notified of your location, and been looking for you.
2. Depending on where you were on Corona Del Mar beach, you may have been in SNA Class C - SURFACE to 4400 MSL Controlled airspace.
3. Relying on a lifeguard, (or police), to tell you "it is perfectly legal" to fly is a mistake.
4. Note to a lot of you on here: Quit using your apps to check airspace and learn to read an FAA Sectional Chart.
Here is where you were flying. I am happy to assist you in determining the airspace requirements.
VFRMAP - Digital Aeronautical Charts

 

[Crack The Sky]

I think I would file a NASA report on that.

Look up

NASA ARC 277B

This is a form for pilots to fill out if a discrepancy occurs. Basically it is a "get out of jail free" card. If you file within 10 days of an incident, FAA cannot fine or take away priviledges under most conditions. Never seen it done with a UAV but it is an aircraft.

Look into this if you violate or have a near miss.

This program has been around a long time and it came about in the interest of safety, to learn from MISTAKES that a pilot made. As such, it can only be used if:

• The violation was inadvertent and not deliberate
• The violation did not involve a criminal offense or accident

Report a deliberate violation with your drone as a means to avoid prosecution and you will be in for a very nasty surprise.
There is no "get out of jail free" card for willful violators, (as it should be).

 

[Brockrock]

Combination stick command, both sticks down and in or down and out, hold for three seconds- kills the motors.

Is that still the CSC for the P3P while in flight, to push both sticks down and in or down and out to shut the motors off? With the P4 while in flight, it is left stick down and in while pressing the RTH button to shut the motors off. I presume this is because down and in or down and out could be a desired command while in flight, and it would be a shame to have the motors shut off unintentionally.

I ask because my nephew has a P3P, and if I ever flew it, I guess I would make sure not to do that...

 

[With The Birds]

Is that still the CSC for the P3P while in flight, to push both sticks down and in or down and out to shut the motors off? With the P4 while in flight, it is left stick down and in while pressing the RTH button to shut the motors off. I presume this is because down and in or down and out could be a desired command while in flight, and it would be a shame to have the motors shut off unintentionally.

I ask because my nephew has a P3P, and if I ever flew it, I guess I would make sure not to do that...

I'm not on the latest firmware with the P3P however the only change I am aware of with the CSC command is that they introduced a change where the sticks need to be held in position for 3sec (used to be close to instantaneous). It's hard to imagine a move that might put the sticks in this position unintentionally, the CSC has been the norm for many RC for many years prior to DJI adopting it.

 

[Brockrock]

I'm not on the latest firmware with the P3P however the only change I am aware of with the CSC command is that they introduced a change where the sticks need to be held in position for 3sec (used to be close to instantaneous). It's hard to imagine a move that might put the sticks in this position unintentionally, the CSC has been the norm for many RC for many years prior to DJI adopting it.

Thanks for reply. Yeah, it would be an extreme maneuver for sure. I rarely go full stick on either of them at anytime when flying my P4 anyway - other than start and shutdown - so I'm sure I would not do so with his P3P.

 

[Crack The Sky]

Next time for sure.

That location is clearly inside the SNA Class C Surface Airspace. Be sure to call prior to flight

 

[Tenly]

I'm not on the latest firmware with the P3P however the only change I am aware of with the CSC command is that they introduced a change where the sticks need to be held in position for 3sec (used to be close to instantaneous). It's hard to imagine a move that might put the sticks in this position unintentionally, the CSC has been the norm for many RC for many years prior to DJI adopting it.

As discussed in other threads - there are many possibilities of hitting that down and out or down and in combination - due to the proliferation of third-party apps that allow remapping the joysticks to do other things (i.e. Control the camera) while in automated or semi-automated flight. The down and in and down and out CSC can also be triggered accidentally by a "new" pilot who panics.

The new CSC combination makes it nearly impossible to trigger accidentally - but still provides a quick mechanism to kill the motors when required. I thought I had read that the new method would also be made available in the newer firmware of the P3P - but admittedly, I have not upgraded since last summer and am unsure if they did it or not.

I've also gotta say that a 3 second delay can feel like an eternity in an emergency. Hadn't heard that they went that route.

 

[DKG13CC]

Hi, Crack the Sky, when you say "call ahead", can you tell me what criteria I would search for to find the proper phone number in any given area? Im in Texas, usually so far out from everything I dont have an issue, but I want to do a lot of traveling in the near future and I want to be flying safe in those areas.

 

[Crack The Sky]

Hi, Crack the Sky, when you say "call ahead", can you tell me what criteria I would search for to find the proper phone number in any given area? Im in Texas, usually so far out from everything I dont have an issue, but I want to do a lot of traveling in the near future and I want to be flying safe in those areas.

vfrmap.com is a wealth of information. Scroll around, zoom in, and toggle between Google earth view and FAA Sectional map view. Zoom in on any airport and left click on it. That will bring up the Airport Supplement with all of the airport information, including contact phone numbers. At the bottom of that open page, click & it will give you any nearby TFR's, also. Always check TFR's before flight.
VFRMAP - Digital Aeronautical Charts

 

[Richard R]

this weekend I was flying at a beach in Corona Del Mar. It is not in a no fly zone, and I talked to a lifeguard to get permission. She said that she had recently spoke to the police about drones and they told her as long as you are not flying over people or disturbing wildlife ( there are a lot of birds on the rocks and arches) that it was perfectly legal.
So, I went to take a pan up shot from the tide pools and I took it straight up to 390 feet. I was under the 400 foot limit and then my butt puckered. I heard the thud thud thud of a helicopter. As I tried to bring it down ASAP, a military helicopter came up over the cliff. * the beach is down below some high cliffs.
The helicopter was flying VERY low and very fast. Had to be below 400 feet.
I didn't want to move my P3P because I figured I may fly into the helicopter and most likely, if it was in its way, it would maneuver around it.
So, I left it where it was and it was a real close near miss.
I quickly brought it down and left the beach.
Since I was flying with permission in a zone ok to fly, could I have got in trouble?

Remember, the bird can climb faster than it flies down! A perfectly acceptable avoidance action would have been to fly above the approaching helo. Remember, 400 ft AGL is not a ceiling for hobby flying, but a suggestion. Even for Part 107 pilots, the FAA accepts that breaking that limit may in some cases be the preferred action.

 

[With The Birds]

Remember, the bird can climb faster than it flies down! A perfectly acceptable avoidance action would have been to fly above the approaching helo. Remember, 400 ft AGL is not a ceiling for hobby flying, but a suggestion. Even for Part 107 pilots, the FAA accepts that breaking that limit may in some cases be the preferred action.

Given most pilots will climb to avoid a collision increasing the altitude of your phantom with the intent of avoiding a collision is probably a poor choice of manoeuvre. You are very likely to encounter AC below 400ft close to the coastline, 150ft may be a better recommended altitude. Yes there may be instances where you fly over 400ft but in general I'd prefer to keep that 100ft separation between our toys and real AC over land that the 400ft rule is intended to provide for.

 

[Plane Mack]

This program has been around a long time and it came about in the interest of safety, to learn from MISTAKES that a pilot made. As such, it can only be used if:

• The violation was inadvertent and not deliberate
• The violation did not involve a criminal offense or accident

Report a deliberate violation with your drone as a means to avoid prosecution and you will be in for a very nasty surprise.
There is no "get out of jail free" card for willful violators, (as it should be).

In addition, even for "inadvertent mistakes", the NASA form is still not a "get out of jail free" card. All it does is provide safety information to the FAA and they can't use the information FROM THE REPORT against you (again, inadvertent mistake criteria), but they can violate you if they have the violation details via other means. (I.e. Witness). It bears repeating, there is NO get out of jail free card.

 

[Crack The Sky]

In addition, even for "inadvertent mistakes", the NASA form is still not a "get out of jail free" card. All it does is provide safety information to the FAA and they can't use the information FROM THE REPORT against you (again, inadvertent mistake criteria), but they can violate you if they have the violation details via other means. (I.e. Witness). It bears repeating, there is NO get out of jail free card.

You are correct, sir. I always try to simplify the Rules & Regulations to the bare bones when posting here, since a lot of people just don't want to hear it. I can always tell when I've struck a nerve, since the thread goes dead after my posting. Personally, I find it comically ironic that there are those who truly believe that if they ignore the rules enough, the FAA will give just up and not implement even more rules.

 

[With The Birds]

You are correct, sir. I always try to simplify the Rules & Regulations to the bare bones when posting here, since a lot of people just don't want to hear it. I can always tell when I've struck a nerve, since the thread goes dead after my posting. Personally, I find it comically ironic that there are those who truly believe that if they ignore the rules enough, the FAA will give just up and not implement even more rules.

Would be interested to learn your take on the best course of action to take in the circumstances detailed by the OP. I consistently get back to ditching the AC (killing the motors) if over water being the best option however I am interested in whether climbing or decent would provide the safest choice. Am I correct in the understanding that most pilots of manned AC wood instinctively climb?

 

[sar104]

Would be interested to learn your take on the best course of action to take in the circumstances detailed by the OP. I consistently get back to ditching the AC (killing the motors) if over water being the best option however I am interested in whether climbing or decent would provide the safest choice. Am I correct in the understanding that most pilots of manned AC wood instinctively climb?

Climb and turn right probably, unless the drone is closing from the right. And that's probably going to be hard to determine from the ground.

 

[Crack The Sky]

Would be interested to learn your take on the best course of action to take in the circumstances detailed by the OP. I consistently get back to ditching the AC (killing the motors) if over water being the best option however I am interested in whether climbing or decent would provide the safest choice. Am I correct in the understanding that most pilots of manned AC wood instinctively climb?

Well, the best course of action would have been to do what I stated in my first post to the OP.
"Corona Del Mar beach is less then (5) miles from Orange County (SNA) airport and you are required to report to the controlling agency prior to conducting your flight. If you had, the chopper would most likely have been notified of your location, and been looking for you".
As far as what to expect from a manned aircraft, that depends. I have had a couple of close shaves with other manned aircraft in my 40+ years of flying, but I quit flying before drones came on the scene.
In general, conflicts happen really quickly. That is primarily because neither party saw each other until the "last second". That can be due to the fact that they were on "collision course" and undetectable to each other, (see one of my other posts where I explain the bizarre but frighteningly true facts about collision courses), or many other spacial orientations that prevent them from seeing each other until the last second, or not at all. Atmospheric conditions can be a huge factor too. "Coming out of the sun", was a standard fighter attack method developed in WW1. Hazy conditions, sunrise, and twilight will all mask oncoming aircraft.

Back to what to expect from the aircraft pilot in a drone vs manned craft encounter.
1. The manned aircraft may never see the drone at all, and consequently take no action to avoid the collision. That's the most likely scenario, in my opinion.
2. If the drone is detected, unless the drone is higher, I would pull up, (climb), and bank in what ever direction it took, to keep the drone in sight, until it was no longer a conflict.

 

[Crack The Sky]

Another thing to remember about midair collisions; something like 80+% of them occur close to airports. This is on of the reasons I am a firm believer that a drone pilot flying for recreation, has no business flying in any Controlled Airspace whether he has notified the Controlling Agency or not. A commercial drone pilot, with a pre-approved Authorization or Waiver is another matter all together.

 

[With The Birds]

Well, the best course of action would have been to do what I stated in my first post to the OP.
"Corona Del Mar beach is less then (5) miles from Orange County (SNA) airport and you are required to report to the controlling agency prior to conducting your flight. If you had, the chopper would most likely have been notified of your location, and been looking for you".
As far as what to expect from a manned aircraft, that depends. I have had a couple of close shaves with other manned aircraft in my 40+ years of flying, but I quit flying before drones came on the scene.
In general, conflicts happen really quickly. That is primarily because neither party saw each other until the "last second". That can be due to the fact that they were on "collision course" and undetectable to each other, (see one of my other posts where I explain the bizarre but frighteningly true facts about collision courses), or many other spacial orientations that prevent them from seeing each other until the last second, or not at all. Atmospheric conditions can be a huge factor too. "Coming out of the sun", was a standard fighter attack method developed in WW1. Hazy conditions, sunrise, and twilight will all mask oncoming aircraft.

Back to what to expect from the aircraft pilot in a drone vs manned craft encounter.
1. The manned aircraft may never see the drone at all, and consequently take no action to avoid the collision. That's the most likely scenario, in my opinion.
2. If the drone is detected, unless the drone is higher, I would pull up, (climb), and bank in what ever direction it took, to keep the drone in sight, until it was no longer a conflict.

Thank you for taking the time to respond, appreciated. The few manned AC pilots I know suspected they would pull up but none had raised the issue (including one who flys commercial jets) which makes sense, they would be unlikely to see it untill too late. It really is on us to avoid areas where manned flights are considered likely. The last occasion I was in a small AC the pilot told me on approach to land she was concerned about a drone that had been seen in the area. Surprisingly she was more concerned about damage to the control surfaces than the propellor. I would have imagined comming through the windscreen would be the worst case scenario.