Just got Talked to by the COPS!!!!

This is my first post. I've learned a ton from this forum over the last few weeks and hopefully will have my first Phantom in the next few weeks.

First off, I am a police officer in Florida. I work in a very busy city that has a wide variety of types of people. I must admit that it annoys me when officers are referred to as "thugs" or "bullies" please remember that we all go to work everyday to help the citizens we work for. We are called on to not only fight crime but also solve people's personal problems. Often these problems are not criminal at all, but are very important to that person. So we "try" and resolve it as best we can, and sometimes we are unable to.

Every single patrol officer or deputy comes to work and sits in a briefing everyday. Everyday we hear the complaints of the citizens we work for. Then we go out and try to fix them.

Please take any legal advice you receive on the internet or from a friend or even from a lawyer with common sense and responsibility. Remember, most of the time we are only talking to you bra cause another citizen has a problem they would like to be addressed. So please help us resolve the problem if you can.

One word of advice for this community: stop using the "D" word immediately, call it a quadrocopter or an RC Quad or whatever.

Ok, now to focus on the sibject at hand... Often people will ask us (and sometimes demand us) to stop someone from doing something that is not illegal. Flying an RC aircraft is not illegal in 99% of the US... But it is not a right, and just because a law doesn't specifically reference and RC aircraft doesn't mean you can't break it with one. There are many state and local laws that restrict "video voyeurism" and many of these laws may prohibit you from viewing an area of someone's property that is not in directly in the "public view" in other words: an area where a person has reasonable expectation of privacy can be violated by someone operating a "flying camera" and it may not matter whether it was accidental or not.

How far an officer would take a complaint of this nature depends on many factors. There are very few laws restricting photography/videography of anyone in public view regardless of their age or gender. But parents simply do not care, if you are operating a "flying camera" near a school, bus stop, or park with children nearby... I can assure you at least one parent will not care that it is not illegal.

The FAA is NOT the boss of a local officer or deputy. We cannot arrest you on FAA violations. But we can apply appropriate statues and ordinances even if they would normally not apply to RC Aircraft.

We live in a world where people call 911 because someone is knocking on the front door. We live in a world where people are paranoid of what they don't understand.

Just remember you have the right to do whatever you want until it infringes on someone else's rights. And we live in a world where people think things that they don't like or agree with are illegal.

Hope I can be of help to anyone here on the forum!
 
havnmonkey,
Thank you for your unique insight on "John Q Public" and how you as a LEO deal with complaints daily.
It is unfortunate that people (like "Crazy Grandma" in the video clips) immediately label everyone and everything that comes into their sphere as pedophiles and felons. I am a licensed investigator and have been doing surveillance for over 25 years. I have to deal with these people daily. There are two ways to do it and admit tingly, I have done both. I can be an *** to them then have to deal with the consequences, OR I can be polite and sometimes still deal with problems from them. Choosing the higher ground ALWAYS prevails. Be an *** and the situation almost always get escalated.
I'm glad you mentioned "Reasonable Expectation of Privacy"
Those four words can bite someone in the *** and tear out their wallet if someone is intentionally (or unintentionally) photographed where they have a "reasonable expectation of privacy", such as their backyard with a privacy fence or shrubberies, or someplace where the general public does not have a (reasonable) view.
That being said, be very careful using a camera over residential areas where you may, whether intentional or not, photograph people where they have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

Example:
My market as a private detective is almost exclusively insurance fraud.
Hypothetically, if I am working a claim where the person maintains that they are bound to a wheelchair and cannot walk and are looking at a potential $2M lawsuit.
I may feel that the person is full of it and fly my quad over the property (I would never do this by the way) and obtain footage of this guy chopping wood or chasing his dog around the back yard. Even though I may have been able to get a video shot of that activity from an adjacent street which would have been great, because I put a camera in the air, 100' above his property in an area not accessible by the general public, the video cannot be used. Furthermore, if the fraudster finds out the video exists or saw the quad and traces it back to me, I'm potentially on the hook for millions. The courts have been very good at upholding reasonable expectation of privacy in these instances.
Same person, different scenario:
He goes out on a boat and is waterskiing and I chase the boat around with the quad and get usable video that he can easily be identified. The video can be used in court and he will lose his $2M lawsuit. Of course two months later I will receive a cease and desist letter from the FAA threatening me with a $10k fine if I do it again.

All that said, my quad is for hobby only and is not used to "spy" on people. I may take an occasional aerial photo of an area that an accident occurred to provide a high quality recent area photo

So, just because there are no laws against flying a remote photography platform, doesn't mean that you are safe from getting it snapped off in your butt. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
If you are going to fly around in your neighborhood, talk to your neighbors beforehand. Offer to inspect their roof and gutters or offer them a high quality aerial photo of their property.

Fly safe, fly smart and ALWAYS keep these (4) words in the back of your mind: "Reasonable Expectation of Privacy"
 
Question along the lines of reasonable expectation of privacy. I notice backyards were mentioned. We live in a subdivision that has predominately 2 story homes with 6ft privacy fences around every yard but every neighbor can look out their windows at everyone's back yard at least halfway down the block. I'd submit that there's no expectation of privacy in those yards. Secondly, we've got people flying hot air balloons and ultralights around us on occasion so I'd wonder where those figure in?
Now I fully understand if you're hovering over someones yard that could be an issue but transiting airspace?
Didn't think I'd have to put a lawyer on retainer just to fly my quad. :shock:
 
"Reasonable expectation of privacy" is not an exact value... It depends on the factors at the time. It also depends on previous or similar court cases, decisions, and judicial opinions.

A backyard with a 6 foot privacy fence around it... Well that would offer some degree of privacy from people at ground level. If a two story house overlooks that property than you have limited expectations. Do you have an expectation to be out of view from a person standing in there driveway 5 houses down form your? Most likely yes you do. Do you have an expectation of privacy from someone standing on the ground who cannot physically see over your fence? Possibly yes you do. Do you have an expectation of privacy from a person floating by in a hot air balloon? Probably not. The same would apply to manned helicopters and airplanes.

The rule of thumb that many states have used to legislate privacy laws is this: if you need a special device to enhance your vision to see into an area that otherwise you could not from just actually being at a public location; it is prohibited without consent. In other words, without direct line of sight you shouldn't be able to see that area (usually only applies to private property).

So my advice for flying around the neighborhood would be this:

Introduce your RC Copter to your neighbors.
Explain to them what it can and cannot do.
Ask them if they have any objections.
Don't fly near places with children.
Don't fly over people's back yards.
Or fly high enough where it won't be noticed or the video won't be detailed enough to recognize people.
Don't hover in front of other people's homes.

And if the cops are called, remember that most of them have no clue what this crazy gizmo is. So be nice and try to explain it so the understand.

And one thing about the states that band UAV's from cops... It's mostly because people think they are magical and have X-ray vision, but in reality it is a legal question about expectation of privacy. Manned helicopters and airplanes have been through the judicial challenges and succeeded because a person (or officer) is actually present to physically do the "looking." Special technology like FLIR, night vision, etc. are still being challenged in court.
 
I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV.
But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

You bring up a good point there. Go out in your backyard. Do YOU feel as if you have any privacy there?
Now enter a camera...
If you saw your neighbor in their 2nd floor window with a camera on you or your family, would YOU feel violated?
If you saw a DSLR rise over the top of your privacy fence with a view of most or all of your backyard and family, how would YOU feel?

Now enter a quad (or hot button word DRONE)...
Now enter a liberal judge...

How you described your neighborhood is much the way my neighborhood is. And depending on the activity on the homeowner's property and location of the camera can be a "gray area". I try to keep well on the safe side of the gray line. Simply because I don't need the hassle or have the time to prove that I am within the law. Remember, anyone can sue you for almost anything. Attorneys will bleed you dry in court, even if you are not breaking a law.
One of the words that any attorney will key on is "Privacy" fence.

That being said, take the high ground.
Americans in general fear "Evil drones spying on them from high"
 
Attorneys will bleed you dry in court, even if you are not breaking a law.
Click to expand...

They will bleed you dry even if you are the plaintiff and trying to get them to even get the ball rolling in court then go in and be all buddy buddy with the other sides layer as they both strategize the best way they both can extract as much from each others clients.

and even if you don't even make it to court to sue the other person it can still end up costing dearly. and with not much chance of the plaintiff wining.

But ya any one can try and sue some one for almost any thing. IFFFFF they have enough money to pay a lawyer a bunch of money without any guarantees of prevailing. and the person you are suing actually also has to have some thing worth suing for. You cant get money out of some on if they are broke and dont have much to take from them in the first place.
 
Several great points made here, a couple recent ones I admit I did not consider. Yes, I'd be unnerved if one of my many neighbors was taking pics into my yard or sticking a camera over the fence. I did try and let the neighbors know what I was doing and that I certainly would NOT be hovering over anyone's yard intentionally (as in unless it was in failsafe or another emergency). I also tried to let them know that no, these can't look into windows unless hovering directly outside the window and even that is "iffy" at best.
I attempted to explain that I transit airspace just like every other thing that flies from man made to animal and would do my level best to avoid yards, instead sticking to roadways etc.
Some people thanked me for my candor and willingness to come forward to get out in front of bad publicity or feelings and others, well, not so good. I had also offered to show anyone my equipment and video captured at any time to let them see what is really happening. I also offered that if they see me flying and are concerned pull over, come up and if my camera is on I'll show what it's seen so your mind can be put to rest.
We'll see, of course there's some that were still angry and upset but I don't think they'd be happy even if Jesus himself was operating the UAV.
Time for that prepaid lawyer service if I'm going to keep flying in ernest. :roll:
 
Getting lawyers involved is a bad idea in my opinion. And unnecessary. All thats required is some common courtesy. Always ask permission of your immediate neighbours to fly over their house. It doesn't take long to use your manners and ask. It may be legal to do what your doing buy ask yourself is it courteous. Most people think of these things as drones as seen on tv with incredible zoom capabilities. This is why we really need to get ourselves away from calling them drones.
Owners of quad copters are always going to have a skewed view of whats reasonable compared to our poor cousins who have not yet known the joy of flying these incredible machines.
 
twodips said:
Question along the lines of reasonable expectation of privacy. I notice backyards were mentioned. We live in a subdivision that has predominately 2 story homes with 6ft privacy fences around every yard but every neighbor can look out their windows at everyone's back yard at least halfway down the block. I'd submit that there's no expectation of privacy in those yards. Secondly, we've got people flying hot air balloons and ultralights around us on occasion so I'd wonder where those figure in?
Now I fully understand if you're hovering over someones yard that could be an issue but transiting airspace?
Didn't think I'd have to put a lawyer on retainer just to fly my quad. :shock:
Click to expand...

I agree 100% twodips! I live in a 2 story house and can see my neighbors entire yard, including their swimming pool. Often they have people over for bbq's, parties etc and have scantily clad females swimming or sunbathing. (Needless to say I never complain if they have a pool party).
My point being as stated by twodips, they have no privacy whatsoever & haven't got a leg to stand on. When I built the house I had to submit my intentions to build a 2 storey house in writing to the local council and any neighbors were given 6mths to lodge objections to the structure. The people next door did have concerns in regard to their privacy, but the building permit was approved regardless.
But back to the issue of my 'lil Phantom friend, obviously if you hover over someones yard for 15mins it looks a bit suspicious, but surely passing over it without stopping is quite within my rights to do so? How many vehicles drive past a school or playground every day? If they park and take photos, that's a different kettle of fish...
 
The issue with "transiting airspace" is that a property owner is entitled to the airspace over his property of which he can make "beneficial use". No doubt by design, "beneficial use" is not absolutely defined but if an airborne device is disturbing him (negatively impacting his beneficial use), it's certainly an issue that may ultimately be decided in a court (they are the ultimate arbiters of such disputes - what any of us here may think is fair is immaterial).

One might also get some insight from this article on Model Fliers & Their Neighbors which was prepared by an attorney for the AMA (http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2012 ... orsDOC.pdf). It's not focused on privacy issues, but on trespass.

It's pointed out in the article that, as with many issues, laws vary by state so a local attorney's advice may well be required ... but this comment should be kept in mind, "The various states apply various theories of recovery to allow their residents to recover for trespass. Yet, every state would consider the flight of a model aircraft at ordinary altitudes over the land of another, without invitation, a trespass."
 
The curious may also find this an interesting discussion (though a bit dated - 2012).
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/pho ... -amendment

The common thread in these articles that highlights a major problem is the frequent use of the phrases "not clear" or "unsettled". The nuances of every situation, not to mention different jurisdictions, makes any absolute statement about what one can or can't lawfully do inherently suspect. The above article clearly shows this by pointing out how one's "established right" to photograph/video police activity in the US differs depending on which circuit court jurisdiction they're in. Ultimately this may be universally decided by the Supreme Court, but it hasn't happened yet.
 
Just the other day I heard the local cops have gotten a few calls recently from different people all over town. Mostly being one of two kinds... 1 weirdos calling in to report some sort of UFO as if the cops are who to call if there really was a ufo and aliens invading or like they could do any thing about it in the first place.

But the weirdest of all are call from paranoid *******'s actually calling the cops demanding to know if its the cops are flying a drone and if they are under some kind of surveillance. From what I heard the cops just say no you probably just seen the the guy over on 5th thats flying his model helicopter thing. Then the callers seem relived or accuse the cops of lying. lol lol

If I was a cop getting calls like that id wonder if the person had some thing that might be of interest to the police and seems pretty stupid for some one to call about and seems stupid that if some one was being watched by the cops that they would expect the cops to confirm the person is under some kind of surveillance. But the cops must not think I'm doing any thing at all wrong if even if its getting calls from others that they still havn't batted an eye about it to me or even asked if I could maybe not fly it so they don't have to get phone calls from weirdos. So I'm going to have to say thats a good sign of what the local police think of its legality. Even if it was not illegal and they just didn't want me flying it. I know enough about how they work in this town that legality would not stop them from trying to intimidate some one in to not doing some thing they just don't want some one doing. and they haven't done any thing like that at all yet. So they must be cool with it.

I also have had 2 different people while I was out flying who I know dam well when they said oh wow I seen that thing the other day when hanging out in the alley with some friends doing some thing and we thought that was the cops watching us. and one I know what he meant was that they were standing around in a circle smoking none cigarettes and got paranoid and disbursed.
and the other dude Is some one I know is one of the local punks that's usually up to no good so what ever he and his friends were doing when they got scared off by me flying my phantom. Tells me it may even have a deterrent effect on people doing things that maybe they should not be doing or don't want to be caught doing.
 
Wah... what is this country where a cop can threaten you to put you in jail with no proof, no law text to refer to...? :lol:
In another hand, you shoud be aware that the FAA like the CAA here say to not flying closer than 50m from people and structures, including while taking off and landing. If your neigbour house is at less than 50m, you can't take off from there. You can't fly as well less than 150m of congested areas and crowds.
You have to understand that you have no business hovering above a property even at 100ft and yes they can have some privacy concerns.
The noise as well is very annoying and you should take your phantom to a clear area to fly it without disturbing anybody. That would be common sense in my opinion.
That said, I would go back to the police station and have a chat with them. Make an appointment if necessary.I seriously doubt they make uninformed decisions, and are not ready to explain why. They must provide texts and articles, and numbers. They may ignore what the FAA/CAA laws are, but they may have other laws concerning populated areas.
my 2 p...
 
You should of hit the cop just once then he would respect you as an alpha male who stands up for his rights and then shake your hand and then thank him for his service.


No but that is kind of a Pickel OP. Just fly low and slow or elsewhere.
 
but when i was 9 my dad was a cop in belfast northern ireland, i was throwing rocks at a british tank with an irish boy older than me, standing on top of a brick wall in an alley when the tank shot the wall out from under us, i was buried in that pile of bricks for 6 hrs, sean died, he was 12.
after that, i fear NO man.
Click to expand...

Sorry sketch, but I call ******** on that statement. The British did not use "tanks" in Northern Ireland" and there is no way they would shoot a wall out from underneath anyone, as there were strict rules of engagement and if any soldier had done as you say, they would have been Courts Martialed. (Bloody Sunday aside).

In all of this thread it would seem the most sensible reaction by the OP would have been to comply with the request/order not to fly in a built up neighbourhood, and then go to the police station and calmly explain the situation. That would probably be the sensible thing to do in my country, and we don't have many people carrying guns to inflame any incident. ;) I may be wrong, but get the impression that people tend to be much more confrontational in the USA (I'm sorry if that is a bit of a generalisation, blame the TV programme we import from you). :)
 
I'm currently getting flack from some of my neighbors about flying in the neighborhood. :( Seems they are under the mistaken impression that these quads can spy into people's windows and think that the airspace around "them" wherever they are is theirs.
I don't fly below 20-25 meters, usually 30 meters. I fly outside my house when testing and fly up and down my street not hovering over people's yards etc.
A few have decided to call the Sheriff and were informed that nothing I'm doing is illegal. I tried explaining that A.The gopro can't see in their windows, offered to prove it and they certainly are NOT a stealth vehicle so you KNOW when one is flying anywhere around you.
I've come to the conclusion that there are people who are just negative people who want to pick a fight.
Pity (for them).
 

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