Higher than 400' AGL altitude for Hobby - special case?

[daveisim]

So we all should know by know by now (in the USA) that the new Hobby rules prohibit operation over 400' AGL in Class G and in any place of Class B ,C, D ( unless an agreement between the area and FAA exists) and "within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport ".

This is the same as the Part 107 rule (with the exception of within 400' of a structure). So why have I emphasized part of the above? Because the FAA has defined what it means by "surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport " to mean not the actual Class E surface which normally appears as a magenta dashed circle / boundary around a Class E airport but typically (Instrument Approach protected area) an extension area of a Class D airport.

Here's previous discussion: Search results for query: surface class e

In the above picture I have identified 3 areas:

The first area in the lower right is a Class E (surface to 3500 MSL) area for an airport.
It's the dashed magenta circle for Cochran Regional airport. You cannot fly here..

The second area is the top left. It is a Class D (surface to 1,000 MSL) airport.
It's the dashed blue circle for Palm Springs airport. You cannot fly here.

The third area the dashed magenta rectangles attached to the right of the Class D Palm Springs airport. They are NOT surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport ". They are classified as E3 & E4 [correction - not: E2 (IIRC)] airspace know as a " Class E surface extension", They go from surface to the next higher airspace, typically (in the picture above) regular Class E around an airport that starts at 700' AGL.

Moderator Edit: the following portion of this post in red print is wrong information. Recreational pilots are limited to 400’ AGL or less. In controlled airspace with LAANC approval you are limited to the height stated in that approval.

So it appears, in the third area, hobbyist can go up to 700' AGL. If there was no fuzzy magenta line surround, the limit would be 1200' ALG as that's normally where Class E starts.

I'll end with the warning that the area I point out is typically for an aircraft Instrument Approach, so while it might be OK to fly up to the 700'/1200' limit, there could be aircraft using that area for landing and you must not interfere with them.


Let the discussion begin!

[edited for E2/E3 - not E2 airspace]

 

[BigAl07]

There are NO allowances for any hobby flights to go over 400' AGL. That's what is called a HARD LIMIT. There are instances where a hobbyist is limited to less than 400'AGL but no allowances for greater.

Don't take my word for it.. I'm just another guy riding the keyboard so my word has little real value (although it's correct in this instance).... call your FSDO and pose the exact same question and get it direct from the official source:

Rochester FSDO	1 Airport Way Rochester, NY 14624	(585) 436-3880

 

[mossphotography]

You correct that hobbyist cannot fly at D or E2 (or B and C for that matter) are the moment. Non-E2 is not specifically defined in the current hobby rules, but should be treated the same as G. That means 400' hard limit.

You have a factual error in your post. E2 is the airspace around an airport, rarely is it the airspace extension from C or D airspace. There are a few exceptions, specifically locally for me is Eagle Valley near Vail. There is an E2 extension. But they are few and far between.

As far as being able to fly above 400', that is not true. 400' is the max hobbyist are allowed to fly no matter what airspace you're in. And in some instances, UASFM limits you to even less than that. I don't understand your logic to justify 700' or 1200'.

And after July 23rd, even hobbyists will be able to fly in controlled airspace, assuming that airspace is LAANC active. They'll simply follow the same procedures as 107 Pilots follow and apply for LAANC approvals via Skyward, Kittyhawk, UASidekick, or such providers.

 

[mossphotography]

Actually, this is such bad information, especially where you say "so while it might be OK to fly up to the 700'/1200' limit", that I encourage you to remove this post. If no one reads the rest of the thread, they'll think it's okay to fly at 700' or 1200'. And that's dangerous.

 

[PhantomFandom]

Let the discussion begin!

There is no discussion here. There is no gray area. There is no other side of the story. Your assumptions were wrong at the start. You CANNOT FLY OVER 400 AGL. PERIOD. THE END.

 

[sar104]

The original post may not have been completely clear but I think that the point being made is that there is potentially an error of omission in the wording of the new law, because the only reference to altitude limit is in 49 USC 44809 (a) (6):

"In Class G airspace, the aircraft is flown from the surface to not more than 400 feet above ground level and complies with all airspace restrictions and prohibitions."

So what about when flying in Class E2 airspace? That's open to recreational UAV flight, but the law doesn't specify a limit there.

 

[mossphotography]

So what about when flying in Class E2 airspace? That's open to recreational UAV flight, but the law doesn't specify a limit there.

"(5) In Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport, the operator obtains prior authorization from the Administrator or designee before operating and complies with all airspace restrictions and prohibitions."

Class E airspace designated or an airport is E2. So yeah, the law most certainly does specific you need permission. And you're limited until LAANC is active for hobbyists.

 

[sar104]

"(5) In Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport, the operator obtains prior authorization from the Administrator or designee before operating and complies with all airspace restrictions and prohibitions."

Class E airspace designated or an airport is E2. So yeah, the law most certainly does specific you need permission. And you're limited until LAANC is active for hobbyists.

Yes - wrote that in too much of a hurry. I meant what about Class E3 and E4 - the surface area extensions for Class C, D and E airport surface areas.

 

[Nick Mendocino]

Wish you guys who cite hard limits would cite particular FAR provisions with chapter and verse. Too often, what some people cite (from memory) are recommendations rather than FAA regulations with force of law. Or they cite old versions that are no longer in force or are in the process of being changed by new rules.

 

[daveisim]

I've edited my post to correct my mention of E2 airspace where, as it's been pointed out, should be E3 or E4 for surface extensions to a Class C, D or E airport.

I've also read section 348 of the law again. I don't see a hard limit of 400' other than in Class G (nor any verbiage that says to treat non-mentioned airspace as Class G) :
“(6) In Class G airspace, the aircraft is flown from the surface to not more than 400 feet above ground level and complies with all airspace restrictions and prohibitions.

The new law also says:
"(5) In Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport, the operator obtains prior authorization from the Administrator or designee before operating and complies with all airspace restrictions and prohibitions. "

It's the same wording, regarding the " within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport" as in part 107:

§ 107.41 Operation in certain airspace. No person may operate a small unmanned aircraft in Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that person has prior authorization from Air Traffic Control (ATC)

It has been previously established, via FAA memorandum, that Part 107 does not need authorization to fly in Class E Surface Extensions, but do need authorization within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport. as the FAA says they are not the same. Therefore, for hobby, there appears to be no authorization restriction for Class E Surface Extensions, just the Class E... designated for an airport .

Tell me, where in the law, I'm mistaken. Please quote / source your reference.

I'm just throwing this out, so the FAA can ask Congress to re-word the law, since it seems to contains a loophole. Or the AMA (or other CBO's) change their safety code to include this.

 

[BigAl07]

I've reached out to Oklahoma (FAA) for some official clarification so that someone doesn't read some of the gray area and misinterpret the bad information in this thread and get us all in trouble. He said he would try to get a reply formulated by tomorrow.

 

[sar104]

I've reached out to Oklahoma (FAA) for some official clarification so that someone doesn't read some of the gray area and misinterpret the bad information in this thread and get us all in trouble. He said he would try to get a reply formulated by tomorrow.

This definitely looks like a poorly worded law - there was absolutely no reason to restrict the clause on altitude to Class G airspace, or even mention Class G airspace in that context.

 

[sar104]

I've edited my post to correct my mention of E2 airspace where, as it's been pointed out, should be E3 or E4 for surface extensions to a Class C, D or E airport.

I've also read section 348 of the law again. I don't see a hard limit of 400' other than in Class G (nor any verbiage that says to treat non-mentioned airspace as Class G) :
“(6) In Class G airspace, the aircraft is flown from the surface to not more than 400 feet above ground level and complies with all airspace restrictions and prohibitions.

The new law also says:
"(5) In Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport, the operator obtains prior authorization from the Administrator or designee before operating and complies with all airspace restrictions and prohibitions. "

It's the same wording, regarding the " within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport" as in part 107:

§ 107.41 Operation in certain airspace. No person may operate a small unmanned aircraft in Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that person has prior authorization from Air Traffic Control (ATC)

It has been previously established, via FAA memorandum, that Part 107 does not need authorization to fly in Class E Surface Extensions, but do need authorization within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport. as the FAA says they are not the same. Therefore, for hobby, there appears to be no authorization restriction for Class E Surface Extensions, just the Class E... designated for an airport .

Tell me, where in the law, I'm mistaken. Please quote / source your reference.

I'm just throwing this out, so the FAA can ask Congress to re-word the law, since it seems to contains a loophole. Or the AMA (or other CBO's) change their safety code to include this.

I don't think that you are mistaken - I think that you identified a mistake in the law as drafted.

 

[Harleydude]

What I haven't seen mentioned here is the 400/400 rule, that you can fly 400' over the tallest tower, mountain, hill, building, etc., as long as you're within 400' of that object. Of course there are exceptions where you can NOT do this. But generally speaking, outside of commercial and/or restricted air space, you can employ this rule.

D

 

[sar104]

What I haven't seen mentioned here is the 400/400 rule, that you can fly 400' over the tallest tower, mountain, hill, building, etc., as long as you're within 400' of that object. Of course there are exceptions where you can NOT do this. But generally speaking, outside of commercial and/or restricted air space, you can employ this rule.

D

Part 107 provides that allowance with regard to structures, but doesn't mention terrain, such as mountains:

§107.51 Operating limitations for small unmanned aircraft.​

A remote pilot in command and the person manipulating the flight controls of the small unmanned aircraft system must comply with all of the following operating limitations when operating a small unmanned aircraft system:​

​

(a) The groundspeed of the small unmanned aircraft may not exceed 87 knots (100 miles per hour).​

​

(b) The altitude of the small unmanned aircraft cannot be higher than 400 feet above ground level, unless the small unmanned aircraft:​

​

(1) Is flown within a 400-foot radius of a structure; and​

​

(2) Does not fly higher than 400 feet above the structure's immediate uppermost limit.​

​

Recreational rules don't mention any allowance with regard to lateral distance to either structures or terrain:

"In Class G airspace, the aircraft is flown from the surface to not more than 400 feet above ground level and complies with all airspace restrictions and prohibitions."​

 

[Harleydude]

Part 107 provides that allowance with regard to structures, but doesn't mention terrain, such as mountains:

It doesn't specifically say "mountains" or "hills," but that's what "AGL" is - Above Ground Level. So when the ground changes, the UAS altitude can change to accommodate. This makes a ton of sense because if you're restricted to flying 400' MSL, you would crash into the side of the first hill over 400' tall.

Here's the quote:

(b) The altitude of the small unmanned aircraft cannot be higher than 400 feet above ground level, unless the small unmanned aircraft:​

​

Notice it doesn't say "Above Launch Level."

I did a 2,000 acre mapping job last year that had 850' elevation between the lowest and highest points. Imagine if I were stuck flying 400' Above Launch Level or MSL, I'd be screwed. Instead we flew Terrain Aware and the UAS adjusted altitude accordingly - all within compliance of the 107.

D

 

[sar104]

It doesn't specifically say "mountains" or "hills," but that's what "AGL" is - Above Ground Level. So when the ground changes, the UAS altitude can change to accommodate. This makes a ton of sense because if you're restricted to flying 400' MSL, you would crash into the side of the first hill over 400' tall.

Here's the quote:

(b) The altitude of the small unmanned aircraft cannot be higher than 400 feet above ground level, unless the small unmanned aircraft:​

​

Notice it doesn't say "Above Launch Level."

I did a 2,000 acre mapping job last year that had 850' elevation between the lowest and highest points. Imagine if I were stuck flying 400' Above Launch Level or MSL, I'd be screwed. Instead we flew Terrain Aware and the UAS adjusted altitude accordingly - all within compliance of the 107.

D

I wasn't referring to the "above ground" part - I was referring to the "within 400 ft of an object" part.

Part 107 explicitly allows you to go higher than 400 ft AGL if you remain within 400 ft laterally of a structure. It doesn't mention that in relation to terrain - for example flying over 400 ft AGL while within 400 ft laterally of a vertical cliff, although it's commonly interpreted to include that situation.

In contrast, the current recreational rules don't allow greater than 400 ft AGL within 400 ft laterally of a structure or anything else.

 

[Calsun]

So we all should know by know by now (in the USA) that the new Hobby rules prohibit operation over 400' AGL in Class G and in any place of Class B ,C, D ( unless an agreement between the area and FAA exists) and "within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport ".

This is the same as the Part 107 rule (with the exception of within 400' of a structure). So why have I emphasized part of the above? Because the FAA has defined what it means by "surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport " to mean not the actual Class E surface which normally appears as a magenta dashed circle / boundary around a Class E airport but typically (Instrument Approach protected area) an extension area of a Class D airport.

Here's previous discussion: Search results for query: surface class e


View attachment 112518
In the above picture I have identified 3 areas:

The first area in the lower right is a Class E (surface to 3500 MSL) area for an airport.
It's the dashed magenta circle for Cochran Regional airport. You cannot fly here..

The second area is the top left. It is a Class D (surface to 1,000 MSL) airport.
It's the dashed blue circle for Palm Springs airport. You cannot fly here.

The third area the dashed magenta rectangles attached to the right of the Class D Palm Springs airport. They are NOT surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport ". They are classified as E3 & E4 [correction - not: E2 (IIRC)] airspace know as a " Class E surface extension", They go from surface to the next higher airspace, typically (in the picture above) regular Class E around an airport that starts at 700' AGL.

So it appears, in the third area, hobbyist can go up to 700' AGL. If there was no fuzzy magenta line surround, the limit would be 1200' ALG as that's normally where Class E starts.

I'll end with the warning that the area I point out is typically for an aircraft Instrument Approach, so while it might be OK to fly up to the 700'/1200' limit, there could be aircraft using that area for landing and you must not interfere with them.

Let the discussion begin!

[edited for E2/E3 - not E2 airspace]

So we all should know by know by now (in the USA) that the new Hobby rules prohibit operation over 400' AGL in Class G and in any place of Class B ,C, D ( unless an agreement between the area and FAA exists) and "within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport ".

This is the same as the Part 107 rule (with the exception of within 400' of a structure). So why have I emphasized part of the above? Because the FAA has defined what it means by "surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport " to mean not the actual Class E surface which normally appears as a magenta dashed circle / boundary around a Class E airport but typically (Instrument Approach protected area) an extension area of a Class D airport.

Here's previous discussion: Search results for query: surface class e


View attachment 112518
In the above picture I have identified 3 areas:

The first area in the lower right is a Class E (surface to 3500 MSL) area for an airport.
It's the dashed magenta circle for Cochran Regional airport. You cannot fly here..

The second area is the top left. It is a Class D (surface to 1,000 MSL) airport.
It's the dashed blue circle for Palm Springs airport. You cannot fly here.

The third area the dashed magenta rectangles attached to the right of the Class D Palm Springs airport. They are NOT surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport ". They are classified as E3 & E4 [correction - not: E2 (IIRC)] airspace know as a " Class E surface extension", They go from surface to the next higher airspace, typically (in the picture above) regular Class E around an airport that starts at 700' AGL.

So it appears, in the third area, hobbyist can go up to 700' AGL. If there was no fuzzy magenta line surround, the limit would be 1200' ALG as that's normally where Class E starts.

I'll end with the warning that the area I point out is typically for an aircraft Instrument Approach, so while it might be OK to fly up to the 700'/1200' limit, there could be aircraft using that area for landing and you must not interfere with them.

Let the discussion begin!

[edited for E2/E3 - not E2 airspace]

I live within 15 miles of an airport and the private planes completely ignore the minimum altitude regulations for the airspace around it. How could the FAA regulate private planes even if it wanted to do so? I have the Oracle stunt plane over my neighborhood doing hammerheads and stalls at less than 1000 feet AGL and again, who are you going to call?

As with the 9/11 incidents that resulted from the airlines refusal to spend the money to harden the cockpit doors, the general public is paying the price for the kneejerk reactions of bureaucrats and ignorant legislators. It is becoming clear that even with the phoned in calls to the Gatwick airport that there was no drone in the area or a threat to aviation but the people in charge kept shutting it down to be on the safe side.

Far more hazardous are the bird life around airports and on approach paths but no one is proposing the mass extermination of ducks and geese within 50 miles of an airport or even within 5 miles. One does get an idea as to where drone operators are in the pecking order.

 

[sar104]

I live within 15 miles of an airport and the private planes completely ignore the minimum altitude regulations for the airspace around it. How could the FAA regulate private planes even if it wanted to do so? I have the Oracle stunt plane over my neighborhood doing hammerheads and stalls at less than 1000 feet AGL and again, who are you going to call?

As with the 9/11 incidents that resulted from the airlines refusal to spend the money to harden the cockpit doors, the general public is paying the price for the kneejerk reactions of bureaucrats and ignorant legislators. It is becoming clear that even with the phoned in calls to the Gatwick airport that there was no drone in the area or a threat to aviation but the people in charge kept shutting it down to be on the safe side.

Far more hazardous are the bird life around airports and on approach paths but no one is proposing the mass extermination of ducks and geese within 50 miles of an airport or even within 5 miles. One does get an idea as to where drone operators are in the pecking order.

Which minimum altitude regulations are you referring to in this case?

 

[DoomMeister]

So we all should know by know by now (in the USA) that the new Hobby rules prohibit operation over 400' AGL in Class G and in any place of Class B ,C, D ( unless an agreement between the area and FAA exists) and "within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport ".

This is the same as the Part 107 rule (with the exception of within 400' of a structure). So why have I emphasized part of the above? Because the FAA has defined what it means by "surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport " to mean not the actual Class E surface which normally appears as a magenta dashed circle / boundary around a Class E airport but typically (Instrument Approach protected area) an extension area of a Class D airport.

Here's previous discussion: Search results for query: surface class e


View attachment 112518
In the above picture I have identified 3 areas:

The first area in the lower right is a Class E (surface to 3500 MSL) area for an airport.
It's the dashed magenta circle for Cochran Regional airport. You cannot fly here..

The second area is the top left. It is a Class D (surface to 1,000 MSL) airport.
It's the dashed blue circle for Palm Springs airport. You cannot fly here.

The third area the dashed magenta rectangles attached to the right of the Class D Palm Springs airport. They are NOT surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport ". They are classified as E3 & E4 [correction - not: E2 (IIRC)] airspace know as a " Class E surface extension", They go from surface to the next higher airspace, typically (in the picture above) regular Class E around an airport that starts at 700' AGL.

So it appears, in the third area, hobbyist can go up to 700' AGL. If there was no fuzzy magenta line surround, the limit would be 1200' ALG as that's normally where Class E starts.

I'll end with the warning that the area I point out is typically for an aircraft Instrument Approach, so while it might be OK to fly up to the 700'/1200' limit, there could be aircraft using that area for landing and you must not interfere with them.

Let the discussion begin!

[edited for E2/E3 - not E2 airspace]

I realize I am a bit late to the party here, but your chart reading needs some major corrections.

1) The shaded magenta surrounding the area you are speaking about denotes that Class E starts at 700’ AGL. This means that Cochran Rgnl (TRM) is E2 from the surface to 700’ AGL.

2) The gray line that aligns with the shaded magenta denotes a TRSA. The values that you see within this area 100/35 and 100/SFC are the ceiling/floor for the TRSA so 3500’ MSL to 10,000’ MSL except within the Class D boundary of Palm Springs Intl (PSP) where it is Surface (476’ MSL) to 10,000’ MSL.

Cochran is E2 from surface to 700’ AGL (586’ MSL) note that the surface of TRM is 114’ below MSL. It is not E2 from the surface to 3500’ AGL.

3) Class E starts at 14,500’ MSL and extends to but not including 18,000 MSL, and also airspace above FL600 unless otherwise designated. Class E below 14,500’ MSL is charted on VFR sectionals and others. Most of CONUS is charted within a shaded blue of the sectionals so most of the US has Class E starting at 1200’ AGL (so it follows the terrain). Other areas inside the shaded magenta are Class E starting at 700’ AGL and following the terrain (as in your example).

Recreational pilots are restricted to a maximum altitude of 400’ AGL no matter where they fly.
49 USC §44909(a)
(5) In Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport, the operator obtains prior authorization from the Administrator or designee before operating and complies with all airspace restrictions and prohibitions.

(6) In Class G airspace, the aircraft is flown from the surface to not more than 400 feet above ground level and complies with all airspace restrictions and prohibitions.

Since Class G underlies the Class E starting at 700’ AGL you would never be able to reach the Class E airspace without being in violation of §44809(a)(6) and within the Class E surface extensions to Class D (E4) you are still restricted to 400’ AGL.

Here is a good resource for Class E airspace rules for UAS pilots.

https://www.faa.gov/uas/resources/events_calendar/archive/2019_uas_symposium/media/How_To_Understand_and_Operate_in_Class_E.pdf