Drone Use Bans

[BigAl07]

BigAl, is it your position then that broad unilateral bans of all drones is appropriate? Is that your stance? Seems pretty short sighted given you also seem to enjoy flying these around yourself. I wonder if you would be as magnanimous if your local community decided to unilaterally ban all drones in your area, and gave you no voice in the decision.

Ducking our heads and hoping for the best doesn’t seem a very reasonable course of action. I’m not advocating a policy of no rules, and am equally concerned and accommodating of those that want a walk in peace or to get back to nature. These are not city parks, these are hundreds of acres of open land. The application of appropriate guidelines around locations to operate from, distance from other visitors, even times of days all could be adopted to allow for the safe and considerate use of drones from these lands.

A simple and complete ban is easy I agree. It would also be simpler to not allow people access at all, or perhaps to ban all pets because dogs bark, or bikes because they make tracks. Easier isn’t right, it’s just easier.

You so easily assume there is no land around me that is banned. I’m surrounded by NPS land where I can’t ride a bike, atv, car, or DRONE yet somehow I find a way to fly almost every day of the year weather permitting.

Go ahead and check out the Blue Ridge Parkway and The Great Smoky Mountains National Park... in fact we have a NPS park area less than 4 miles from my home where no UAS flight can take off/land. I live just a short commute (maybe 15min) from the boundary to The Great Smoky Mountains National Park. I don’t know the total area but it encompasses thousands of acres and goes from well inside NC (where I am) across the state line and well into TN. I can’t even fly UAS there for Search n Rescue at the State level unless I get written approval from the Admin or have a NPS Ranger on scene. Below is a screen shot of the map of GSMNP and I’ve placed a circle around where I live to emphasize I know exactly what it’s like to not fly in a majestic and serene area.

I still fully support a total ban on UAS operations in these areas and I have felt this way for much longer than drones have been on store shelves. It’s awesome to get away from Technology and become fully immersed in The Great Outdoors. One of the last things I want is to see or hear UAS spoiling this for those of us who go there to get away from that very thing.

 

[BigAl07]

I was wondering just how large the GSMNP is and I was shocked how large and how popular it really is:

Great Smoky Mountains
National Park NC, TN

Acreage
Great Smoky Mountains National Park covers 522,427 acres, divided almost evenly between the states of North Carolina and Tennessee.


Visitation
More than 11.3 million recreational visits in 2016. (This figure does not include the approximately 11 million travelers on the Gatlingburg-Pigeon Forge Spur.) Highest visitation of any of the 59 national parks. The second most heavily visited national park is Grand Canyon with 4.6 million visits, third is Yosemite with 3.8 million, fourth is Yellowstone with 3.2 million.
*********************************************************************************************

Allen

 

[skymonkey]

I was wondering just how large the GSMNP is and I was shocked how large and how popular it really is:

Great Smoky Mountains
National Park NC, TN

Acreage
Great Smoky Mountains National Park covers 522,427 acres, divided almost evenly between the states of North Carolina and Tennessee.


Visitation
More than 11.3 million recreational visits in 2016. (This figure does not include the approximately 11 million travelers on the Gatlingburg-Pigeon Forge Spur.) Highest visitation of any of the 59 national parks. The second most heavily visited national park is Grand Canyon with 4.6 million visits, third is Yosemite with 3.8 million, fourth is Yellowstone with 3.2 million.
*********************************************************************************************

Allen

I’ve been to GSMNP many times and I absolutely love it.
A mans home is his castle and it is where he feels the most safe and secure and most importantly relaxed. I think the animals should have as much also. Opening this parks to drones will only have too many idiots harassing wildlife. There are plenty other scenic places to video and photograph. If you want to see the animals through a camera lens then subscribe to National Geographic.

 

[ribjig]

majority of the areas highlighted around park managed lands is private property.

Are there not public roads-streets-lanes with public shoulders leading
to all these private properties??? Plenty of banned parks & preserves
in FL, but also plenty of adjacent public strips of land.
Yes, its limiting, one may have to fly straight up only, but...

 

[RussOnTheRoad]

I feel and understand your pain. However, "For all intents and purposes, this organization manages the available natural open spaces across the entire region" is imply not accurate. The company manages 120,000 acres of park area. They maintain wilderness areas and non-motorized trails.Here is a map of the areas that they run in a very small section of California:

View attachment 109128

Even in this small area of CA, they maintain only a _very_ small section of land. My point... I really think you could find a lot of other places to fly and just avoid public parks. But don't take this the wrong way, it cannot hurt to have your voice heard and ask this company is they would allow some type of drone flight.

I feel and understand your pain. However, "For all intents and purposes, this organization manages the available natural open spaces across the entire region" is imply not accurate. The company manages 120,000 acres of park area. They maintain wilderness areas and non-motorized trails.Here is a map of the areas that they run in a very small section of California:

View attachment 109128

Even in this small area of CA, they maintain only a _very_ small section of land. My point... I really think you could find a lot of other places to fly and just avoid public parks. But don't take this the wrong way, it cannot hurt to have your voice heard and ask this company is they would allow some type of drone flight.

I lived in the Bay Area when I owned a Phantom 4. I could only find one place to practice flying--Caesar Chavez Park, a small, uninteresting piece of land on the watefrront where it can be very windy.

The map you posted shows the land under the jurisdiction of the EBRPD but it doesn't show areas outside their lands where you cannot fly. If those areas were marked in red you might see that most if not all of the land outside the parks is off limits. It is largely urban.

I'm not saying there aren't other places to fly but for me I had to travel 40 minutes round trip to Chavez just to be able to fly for 20.

 

[Sfgiants24]

Bhart, I feel your pain. I too live in coco county. Unfortunately there are no rural areas to fly because of the population of the sf Bay Area. I’m an avid hiker and biker who uses the trails around here regularly, and nobody appreciates a drone buzzing around while trying to get away from the traffic and noise of daily life. Most feel it’s an invasion of privacy as well, even though I’m not photographing them. These are the reasons I haven’t flown in about 6 months. You have to find the time to get out of the area and fly safely. I have a phantom 3 pro, so I really can’t sell it and get anything for it, so I’ll fly when I can.

 

[bhartwell]

Bhart, I feel your pain. I too live in coco county. Unfortunately there are no rural areas to fly because of the population of the sf Bay Area. I’m an avid hiker and biker who uses the trails around here regularly, and nobody appreciates a drone buzzing around while trying to get away from the traffic and noise of daily life. Most feel it’s an invasion of privacy as well, even though I’m not photographing them. These are the reasons I haven’t flown in about 6 months. You have to find the time to get out of the area and fly safely. I have a phantom 3 pro, so I really can’t sell it and get anything for it, so I’ll fly when I can.

Maybe it’s a California thing, maybe not. It’s sad really, but even amongst those that enjoy these tools, the feedback I generally get is “not my problem, it’s fine if your state, county, city bans drones. They are a nuisance anyway”.

San Mateo country just passed sweeping bans that make flying a UAV anywhere in the county illegal, and imposes hefty fines. Half Moon bay and Pacifica have followed suite, although Pacifica is not as restrictive. That leaves Berkeley and a section of Oakland, and the city of San Francisco itself, which is surprisingly limited in the restrictions it has passed.

I guess if nobody cares, then more and more restrictions will be applied and the promising future of this tech will get nipped before it can really catch on. Maybe that’s ok with most, but I would be disappointed that something so promising would be so easily killed off, all for lack of anybody caring enough to push back on unreasonable restrictions.

 

[dangerd]

Find a nearby road or sidewalk and take off from there. As long as it is not a nature reserve, wildlife refuge or controlled airspace where you can not fly. You can fly over the parks and they can’t do anything about it, just don’t fly over people.
Or you can fly elsewhere.
There are plenty of places you can fly in the Bay Area.
I have flown in San Francisco, just plan your flight to make sure that you will not fly over any heads and so you are in legal airspace.

 

[Sfgiants24]

Maybe it’s a California thing, maybe not. It’s sad really, but even amongst those that enjoy these tools, the feedback I generally get is “not my problem, it’s fine if your state, county, city bans drones. They are a nuisance anyway”.

San Mateo country just passed sweeping bans that make flying a UAV anywhere in the county illegal, and imposes hefty fines. Half Moon bay and Pacifica have followed suite, although Pacifica is not as restrictive. That leaves Berkeley and a section of Oakland, and the city of San Francisco itself, which is surprisingly limited in the restrictions it has passed.

I guess if nobody cares, then more and more restrictions will be applied and the promising future of this tech will get nipped before it can really catch on. Maybe that’s ok with most, but I would be disappointed that something so promising would be so easily killed off, all for lack of anybody caring enough to push back on unreasonable restrictions.

I don’t know. The more I read the posts in this forum, the more I think you and I may be the exception to the rule of flying respectfully and within the law. Can you imagine all the drones in the regional parks if they opened it up, chasing down the cows and people out in Briones? I can see it happening.

 

[mdurbanek]

We have kids & grandkids in San Ramon and visit there frequently. I looked up the local regs and was surprised to see them.
I know it’s a “district” for tax and funding reasons, but I wonder, who makes the rules? I would think that a management company couldn’t write the code. The individual municipalities or counties would have act. But then again I really don’t know. They have A LOT of really nice and big parks.

 

[bhartwell]

We have kids & grandkids in San Ramon and visit there frequently. I looked up the local regs and was surprised to see them.
I know it’s a “district” for tax and funding reasons, but I wonder, who makes the rules? I would think that a management company couldn’t write the code. The individual municipalities or counties would have act. But then again I really don’t know. They have A LOT of really nice and big parks.

All of the parks, open spaces, lands and nature preserves in that area are part of the East Bay Regional Parks district, with the exception of a few local city parks. All of these have banned drones. Not some or a few, all of them. And yes they did this with no public comment. Basically, they sited the danger to air traffic and birds as the reasoning. Now, the fact that they do not manage air traffic seemed to have little impact on the rule when passed. Nor was any bird impact presented. Simply the potential risk was enough justification in the eyes of the EBPD board.

So, if you have a drone and you live in San Ramon, you basically can’t legally flight it, unless you fly from your own property or if you get permission from another property owner. That’s the reality of the situation today.

 

[bhartwell]

Find a nearby road or sidewalk and take off from there. As long as it is not a nature reserve, wildlife refuge or controlled airspace where you can not fly. You can fly over the parks and they can’t do anything about it, just don’t fly over people.
Or you can fly elsewhere.
There are plenty of places you can fly in the Bay Area.
I have flown in San Francisco, just plan your flight to make sure that you will not fly over any heads and so you are in legal airspace.

I wish, but read the ordinances. Especially San Mateo. They have adopted a unilateral no fly zone across the entire county, including the previously called Drone Beach in Foster City. Not anymore, see the attached referenced no fly zone. Basically the whole area is off limits now.

https://data.smcgov.org/widgets/avpy-7s48

 

[xspwhite]

For years, I wanted an RC plane, but never bought one because I lived in the city so there was really no places to fly. When I started seeing the quadcopters around, I decided to buy one, but Im fortunate now to be out in the country with lots of space. I think as time goes on, we will see the drone flying hobby pushed into designated areas like it's always been for the model aircraft hobby itself.

 

[NRJ]

In Germany there is a meaningful saying: "No knowledge does not protect against punishment"

Translated by german with google translator

It turns out we have "meaningful sayings" in the U.S. too.
There is a widely used saying in the U.S. stating, "There is no excuse for ignorance of the law". That of course makes no sense. A moot point derived out of 'No knowledge'.

How many laws are there in the United States? No One Knows. There are about 20,000 laws just governing the use and ownership of guns. New laws mean new crimes. From the start of 2000 through 2007, Congress had created at least 452 new crimes, so that at that time the total number of Federal crimes exceeded 4,450.

This renders that saying "There is no excuse for ignorance of the law" moot as no one person or any lawyers for that matter can or do know all laws. That statement is very general and wide ranging rendering that statement moot and without knowledge.

How many words are in the English language?
The Second Edition of the 20-volume Oxford English Dictionary contains full entries for 171,476 words in current use, and 47,156 obsolete words.

The Average Person
It’s safe to say that the average vocabulary of people is less than the total number of words in English. When you use the word counter in Google Docs to count the number of words you’ve typed in an essay, that number will only be a fraction of the total number of words in English. There is just no way that someone can know and use daily every word in the English language.

But, how many words does the average person know? Robert Charles Lee, a published writer, answers this question on Quora. He writes that “3,000 words will cover 95% of everyday writing — common texts and speech like newspapers, blogs, most books, movies, etc.” Out of those 3000 words, only “the first 1,000 words are used in 89% of everyday writing.

List of national parks of the United States - Wikipedia
List of national parks of the United States - Wikipedia
The total area protected by national parks is approximately 52.2 million acres (211,000 km 2), for an average of 870 thousand acres (3,500 km 2) but a median of only 229 thousand acres (930 km 2). The national parks set a visitation record in 2017, with more than 84 million visitors.

A N D... We 'Drone Pilots' have been locked out of all 52.2 million acres of some of the most spacious and beautiful land in our Great United States because we have a flying camera. Yet, all 84 million visitors without a drone can and do climb with their DSLR cameras to the very top peaks to get that once in a lifetime shot at the highest point traversing dangerous land, rocks and vermin and can post all their photos of great shots on YouTube, Facebook, Twitter etc and show the world where they went and almost died climbing those rocks to get that shot. But the general rule is... No drones!

Those so called "meaningful sayings" are also with 'No knowledge'.

 

[bhartwell]

It turns out we have "meaningful sayings" in the U.S. too.
There is a widely used saying in the U.S. stating, "There is no excuse for ignorance of the law". That of course makes no sense. A moot point derived out of 'No knowledge'.

How many laws are there in the United States? No One Knows. There are about 20,000 laws just governing the use and ownership of guns. New laws mean new crimes. From the start of 2000 through 2007, Congress had created at least 452 new crimes, so that at that time the total number of Federal crimes exceeded 4,450.

This renders that saying "There is no excuse for ignorance of the law" moot as no one person or any lawyers for that matter can or do know all laws. That statement is very general and wide ranging rendering that statement moot and without knowledge.

How many words are in the English language?
The Second Edition of the 20-volume Oxford English Dictionary contains full entries for 171,476 words in current use, and 47,156 obsolete words.

The Average Person
It’s safe to say that the average vocabulary of people is less than the total number of words in English. When you use the word counter in Google Docs to count the number of words you’ve typed in an essay, that number will only be a fraction of the total number of words in English. There is just no way that someone can know and use daily every word in the English language.

But, how many words does the average person know? Robert Charles Lee, a published writer, answers this question on Quora. He writes that “3,000 words will cover 95% of everyday writing — common texts and speech like newspapers, blogs, most books, movies, etc.” Out of those 3000 words, only “the first 1,000 words are used in 89% of everyday writing.

List of national parks of the United States - Wikipedia
List of national parks of the United States - Wikipedia
The total area protected by national parks is approximately 52.2 million acres (211,000 km 2), for an average of 870 thousand acres (3,500 km 2) but a median of only 229 thousand acres (930 km 2). The national parks set a visitation record in 2017, with more than 84 million visitors.

A N D... We 'Drone Pilots' have been locked out of all 52.2 million acres of some of the most spacious and beautiful land in our Great United States because we have a flying camera. Yet, all 84 million visitors without a drone can and do climb with their DSLR cameras to the very top peaks to get that once in a lifetime shot at the highest point traversing dangerous land, rocks and vermin and can post all their photos of great shots on YouTube, Facebook, Twitter etc and show the world where they went and almost died climbing those rocks to get that shot. But the general rule is... No drones!

Those so called "meaningful sayings" are also with 'No knowledge'.

I wish it were only National Parks, in my area it is all parks. The Bay Area of Northern California offers some of the most beautiful and majestic scenery in the country. A vast inland bay, with marshlands that extend from the City to San Jose. Green and brown hills that offer a unquestionably striking distinction from the marshlands below. A rugged coast that is both hostile and scenic at the same time.

Most of these lands were working farms, salt factories, manufacturing facilities, shipping lanes and more, all put to good use. Then, somehow, someone decided that they were at risk and must be protected. The local park districts and cities began restricting access, banning motor bikes, then bikes, then pets and so on. They started charging people just to go there, and imposing heavy fines if anybody broke the increasingly stringent rules. The East Bay parks have now banned kites, yes kites, because of the “hazards” these dangerous self propelled flying devices pose. Of course Drones were banned, as were RC craft, even non-motor driven RC craft (with the exception of a single hill in Coyote Hills park that still allows non-motorized gliders).

So, yes, I get angry when I get replies when these concerns are posted that drones are annoying, we shouldn’t raise a fuss, where I live it’s not a problem so you should be ok about it. I guess I should just put on blinders and let our local commuter leaders, guided by a vocal, but minority group of “advocates” do as they please, sure, it’s worked out fine so far.

 

[NRJ]

I wish it were only National Parks, in my area it is all parks. The Bay Area of Northern California offers some of the most beautiful and majestic scenery in the country. A vast inland bay, with marshlands that extend from the City to San Jose. Green and brown hills that offer a unquestionably striking distinction from the marshlands below. A rugged coast that is both hostile and scenic at the same time.

Most of these lands were working farms, salt factories, manufacturing facilities, shipping lanes and more, all put to good use. Then, somehow, someone decided that they were at risk and must be protected. The local park districts and cities began restricting access, banning motor bikes, then bikes, then pets and so on. They started charging people just to go there, and imposing heavy fines if anybody broke the increasingly stringent rules. The East Bay parks have now banned kites, yes kites, because of the “hazards” these dangerous self propelled flying devices pose. Of course Drones were banned, as were RC craft, even non-motor driven RC craft (with the exception of a single hill in Coyote Hills park that still allows non-motorized gliders).

So, yes, I get angry when I get replies when these concerns are posted that drones are annoying, we shouldn’t raise a fuss, where I live it’s not a problem so you should be ok about it. I guess I should just put on blinders and let our local commuter leaders, guided by a vocal, but minority group of “advocates” do as they please, sure, it’s worked out fine so far.

You're absolutely right bhartwell. We should all get angry. But, it is felt in this day and age that you can't get angry, especially about something you feel passionate about. Yet anger and passion are natural feelings we all have. Anger and passion does not mean that we will hurt someone. Anger and passion in this case causes us to stand up against those that would suppress our drone flying!

States, counties, cities, or any place that would make a blanket ruling against drones or anything for any reason are lazy, happy with their situation and pay grade and don't want to rock the boat or do anything to change their situation. They lack knowledge of their basic duties as public servants.

 

[NRJ]

I was wondering just how large the GSMNP is and I was shocked how large and how popular it really is:

Great Smoky Mountains
National Park NC, TN

Acreage
Great Smoky Mountains National Park covers 522,427 acres, divided almost evenly between the states of North Carolina and Tennessee.


Visitation
More than 11.3 million recreational visits in 2016. (This figure does not include the approximately 11 million travelers on the Gatlingburg-Pigeon Forge Spur.) Highest visitation of any of the 59 national parks. The second most heavily visited national park is Grand Canyon with 4.6 million visits, third is Yosemite with 3.8 million, fourth is Yellowstone with 3.2 million.
*********************************************************************************************

Allen

Hey BigAl, Would you consider opening up say 22,427 acres to UAS flying keeping it open to everyone as well except anyone venturing in this protected UAS area does so knowing there may be drones? Or maybe we do this for a time as a test to see just how dangerous these drones and their pilots are? The general public still has access to all 522,427 acres. The 22,427 acres can be broken up in various areas to permit others from different sides to not have to travel so far, say from the east to the west. in other words, roughly 5000 acres on the northern border, 5000 on the eastern border etc. Signs would be posted in these Drone access area's letting the general public know that they may hear drones flying overhead. So, are you open to this option?

 

[BigAl07]

Hey BigAl, Would you consider opening up say 22,427 acres to UAS flying keeping it open to everyone as well except anyone venturing in this protected UAS area does so knowing there may be drones? Or maybe we do this for a time as a test to see just how dangerous these drones and their pilots are? The general public still has access to all 522,427 acres. The 22,427 acres can be broken up in various areas to permit others from different sides to not have to travel so far, say from the east to the west. in other words, roughly 5000 acres on the northern border, 5000 on the eastern border etc. Signs would be posted in these Drone access area's letting the general public know that they may hear drones flying overhead. So, are you open to this option?

Negative! I don't want drones, dirt bikes, atv, cars, trucks etc in any of the wilderness areas. I go there to get away from technology and I have for many decades now. If I want to fly I go where it's allowed and I have fun and get my pics.

Some of the areas I'm talking about don't even allow SIGNS once you leave the main parking area because it's WILDERNESS areas and mandated to keep it clean and as nature built it.

My opinion is merely that but it's shared by many people who come here every year to get away from technology in just about every way possible.

 

[NRJ]

Negative! I don't want drones, dirt bikes, atv, cars, trucks etc in any of the wilderness areas. I go there to get away from technology and I have for many decades now. If I want to fly I go where it's allowed and I have fun and get my pics.

Some of the areas I'm talking about don't even allow SIGNS once you leave the main parking area because it's WILDERNESS areas and mandated to keep it clean and as nature built it.

My opinion is merely that but it's shared by many people who come here every year to get away from technology in just about every way possible.

Well, that's interesting and very shallow. In my opinion, it's your way or the highway. Your opinion is very limited which shows me that to discuss any issue with you in the future is futile. I already know where you stand and you won't allow any thoughts different than yours. Good luck with that! I wish you a good day and many beautiful drone flying days.

 

[BigAl07]

Well, that's interesting and very shallow. In my opinion, it's your way or the highway. Your opinion is very limited which shows me that to discuss any issue with you in the future is futile. I already know where you stand and you won't allow any thoughts different than yours. Good luck with that! I wish you a good day and many beautiful drone flying days.

Make things personal much? Watch how you word yourself there... getting borderline there my friend.