CAA. What is Substantially Congested

[IrishSights]

To me it doesn't qualify as a "congested area". However the 50m rule applies regarding persons, boats, roads, cars and structures. I would stay at 50m then. Not at 150.

That is interesting - and I like your conclusion . What criteria did you use to reach it ?

I may be wrong, but really, to me it doesn't appear as a congested area, it is not over crowded with boats, or people , or cars, or houses, it doesn't appear as a recreational place as such, it is a small and quiet marina, I do not evaluate the risk as high there. So, (to me again) definitely not a congested area. I would allow myself to come closer than the 150m mini required for congested areas. However, you can see all the red lights for the 50m rule: Road, bridge, cars (a few), probably some residents (a few) and visitors. and buildings.(Is it a railway at the top of the picture?)

It is around 80 boats all in a tight area. At best I think you just have to make a personal judgment on it. Its not a major area thats for sure and I am sure the CAA have more cut and dry breaches to pursue.

 

[sergekouper]

Got an answer from my RPQ's instructor... He says that (looking at the picture) this area may be considered as congested, or not, depending on the activity, boats, people, cars... at certain times of the day/year. It may require an on site visit to get more information to establish a proper risk assessment. The railway line is a major concern as well. But apparently, flying along the yellow line could be possible at less than 150m with a phantom, if the area is quiet, for example at the end of the afternoon, early in the morning, in winter... etc. He refered me to the CAA IN2014/190 which is clear about flying in congested areas.

 

[Hughie]

Got an answer from my RPQ's instructor... He says that (looking at the picture) this area may be considered as congested, or not, depending on the activity, boats, people, cars... at certain times of the day/year. It may require an on site visit to get more information to establish a proper risk assessment. The railway line is a major concern as well. But apparently, flying along the yellow line could be possible at less than 150m with a phantom, if the area is quiet, for example at the end of the afternoon, early in the morning, in winter... etc. He refered me to the CAA IN2014/190 that is quite clear about flying in congested areas.

It is very quiet down there, I may do an early morning trip in that case.
Many thanks for that.

 

[Hughie]

After a 5 week wait, I heard back from the CAA on what is and what isnt substantially congested.

Basically they say it is up to us to make a judgement call as to whether it is risking damage to persons or property, and we should be able to justify that if they disgreed.

Fine. However, "substantally congested" relates to SUSAs only. So why does risk assessment of "damage to persons or property" not relate to an SUA.

Either the 150m rule should be about privacy only, or, SUAs should be bound by the 150m rule.

I wonder if they have made it this confusing for a reason :?

Edit : I have heard back from them again, I sought further clarification. They say that they are aware of the contradication and 167 is a bit of a blunt instrument, and for commercial purposes they do not distingish between SUA and SUSA. The gist I infer, is that basically SUAs should also really take account of the 150m rule, and it is there for safety purposes as well as privacy ones.

 

[IrishSights]

Great that you got a reply eventually. They seemed to be grossly short staffed. Its currently taking around 6 weeks from submission to get a PFAW and it is expected to rise to 60 days or so towards the summer. I think that is why they have streamlined the ops manual/flight test to a weight class/operator permission rather than a specific aircraft/operator permission - less work for them. It also means no 'paid for' flight tests are required by the CAA from a NQE. Where that leaves full BNUC-S certification is still a bit vague, at present they say that a flight test per aircraft is still required for the certification but not for the CAA.

Just realised I have rambled on here totally off topic - sorry

 

[Hughie]

Great that you got a reply eventually. They seemed to be grossly short staffed. Its currently taking around 6 weeks from submission to get a PFAW and it is expected to rise to 60 days or so towards the summer. I think that is why they have streamlined the ops manual/flight test to a weight class/operator permission rather than a specific aircraft/operator permission - less work for them. It also means no 'paid for' flight tests are required by the CAA from a NQE. Where that leaves full BNUC-S certification is still a bit vague, at present they say that a flight test per aircraft is still required for the certification but not for the CAA.

Just realised I have rambled on here totally off topic - sorry

No problem. All part of the wider picture. Nice to know.

 

[fly-catchers]

I was thinking of flying my Phantom along the coastline from Kingsdown to Deal Kent either over the beach or near the waters edge. Or really over the Channel if feeling brave! I would walk along the route and refuel the craft if/when needed. Would this type of flight also be considered a breach of the 150 metre rule? I would fly early morning to reduce any encounters with people, though dog walkers seemed to be around at all times of the day or night!

cheers

bill

 

[Hughie]

I was thinking of flying my Phantom along the coastline from Kingsdown to Deal Kent either over the beach or near the waters edge. Or really over the Channel if feeling brave! I would walk along the route and refuel the craft if/when needed. Would this type of flight also be considered a breach of the 150 metre rule? I would fly early morning to reduce any encounters with people, though dog walkers seemed to be around at all times of the day or night!

cheers

bill

I would say definitely a breach - unless you were flying over the sea.
There are clusters of buildings basically all the way up along the beach.... but you decide