** most people are not that smart **
I'll quote Einstein in reference (he was kind of smart).
"Two things are infinite, the universe; and human stupidity. But, I am not sure about the universe."
Sad that my flying days are over Monday
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** most people are not that smart **
I'll quote Einstein in reference (he was kind of smart).
"Two things are infinite, the universe; and human stupidity. But, I am not sure about the universe."
"Section 336(a)(2) requires model aircraft to be operated within a community- based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community- based organization. Congress explained that it intended “nationwide community-based organization” to mean, in part, a “membership based association that represents the aeromodeling community within the Unites States; [and] provides its members a comprehensive set of safety guidelines that underscores safe aeromodeling operations within the National Airspace System and the protection and safety of the general public on the ground . . . .” U.S. House, FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012, Conference Report (to Accompany H.R. 658), 112 H. Rpt. 381 (Feb. 1, 2012) (discussion of special rule for model aircraft). Based on this language, which provides context to Congress’ use of the term “nationwide community-based organization,” the FAA expects that model aircraft operations conducted under section 336(a) will be operated according to those guidelines."
So if you can convince the FAA that registering for a DJI Phantom-specific forum that hasn't developed and published such a set of guidelines qualifies, then sure!
Joking aside, such an organization could be founded, but it would be a pretty serious undertaking. I read somewhere that the FAA stated that the AMA was the only organization that they were aware of that currently met the definition. Maybe there is another out there?
You do not have to be a member of AMA or any other organization to fly under section 336 Special Rules for Model Aircraft.
"Could not the "Phantom Pilots Forum" a nationwide community organization, publish this set of safety guideline ? Then we as members of said organization are following the regulation?
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Indeed! Although the AMA would have you believe that they are the one and only nationwide community based organization, if that was the case, the FAA would have stated you have to follow the AMA Guidelines. We here have our own community-based set of safety Guidelines! We hereby reject the AMA Guidelines and adopt as our only safety Guideline "No reckless flying!" That has been the FAA's ONLY overriding guideline for everyone all along, and if it is good enough for the FAA, it's good enough for us!It covers everything!
This forum wouldn't qualify as a nationwide community organization as more then half here could care less what rules or regulations are passed by the FAA. But you will sooner or later.
The reality is that anything that is or could be dangerous such as flying a 3lb object 400' over the heads of unsuspecting people will most definitely at some point be regulated. And in my opinion it should be. Doesn't matter if a few drone operators are "stupid" and don't follow the rules or not. In other words. A few bad apples are not going to ruin it for the rest of us the inherent danger of this hobby is what is going to bring about these rules. I don't want to be walking through the city and have anything fall on my head. the reality is these drones are not perfect, look at all the fly always and crashes people post. That's why I fly over sparcly populated areas. I'm a realist and even though I have great confidence in my abilities to pilot I don't have the same in confidence in the equipment.
There is inherent risk in most activities; the question is how you recognize and mitigate that risk. You are much more likely to be hit by a car than a drone, yet we still drive and walk next to streets. There are safe drivers and quite unsafe drivers, safe cars and rust buckets that are one speed bump away from losing a wheel and careening into a crowd. So it goes with unmanned aircraft and their pilots. There will be accidents and incidents, just as there are with cars, guns, boats, kayaks, skis, and lots more.
As a lions fan myself, this photo is awesome. Nfl is rigged anyways.
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GadgetGuy
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Interesting conclusion without any legal support. So if more than half of AMA members could also care less about what rules or regulations are passed by the FAA, does that mean they are also not a qualifying nationwide community organization? Do you just enjoy making this stuff up?
All your sarcasm aside, why couldn't this forum's members qualify, by simply adopting the FAA "No reckless flying" edict?
GadgetGuy
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Just fire up the motors and GO! There is no photosensor on the aircraft that prevents flying at night! You are still "able" to fly at night!
Hobby flyers can still legally fly at night, you're just supposed to follow a community-based organizations guidelines (such as AMA). Commercial pilots can also ask for an exemption to fly at night.
Lots of cities have laws or ordinances against drinking alcoholic beverages or having open containers of alcoholic beverages in city parks. Cops have other more important things to do than drive around looking for violators; however, if someone drinking creates problems, the cops have a legal basis to charge them. I suspect FAA regs are the same. You probably won't be bothered unless your illegal behavior is called to their attention. One way to do that would be to fly over a crowd, lose control of your drone, and have someone injured or killed as a result.
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If this question is off topic or a high jack I apologize upfront.
Forever it has been argued that only the FAA controls the airspace however with the statement that says in part, hobbits should follow a community-based organizations guidelines, where does that leave us for flying over private property, i.e., homes, private land, etc.?
We have observed posting of it being okay if we were X feet above them or we were just passing over, but when I look to one community-based organizations guidelines, AMA in this case, they don't support it. They consider it trespassing. Have I got this all wrong? Does it change if it is a business that is open to the public vs a private local?
Just trying to sort this all out.
Forever it has been argued that only the FAA controls the airspace however with the statement that says in part, hobbits should follow a community-based organizations guidelines, where does that leave us for flying over private property, i.e., homes, private land, etc.?
We have observed posting of it being okay if we were X feet above them or we were just passing over, but when I look to one community-based organizations guidelines, AMA in this case, they don't support it. They consider it trespassing. Have I got this all wrong? Does it change if it is a business that is open to the public vs a private local?
Just trying to sort this all out.
Last edited:
The AMA's safety code says nothing about overflying property:
Academy of Model Aeronautics National Model Aircraft Safety Code
Effective January 1, 2014
A. GENERAL: A model aircraft is a non-human-carrying aircraft capable of sustained flight in the atmosphere. It may not exceed limitations of this code and is
intended exclusively for sport, recreation, education and/or competition. All model flights must be conducted in accordance with this safety code and any
additional rules specific to the flying site.
1. Model aircraft will not be flown:
(a) In a careless or reckless manner.
(b) At a location where model aircraft activities are prohibited.
2. Model aircraft pilots will:
(a) Yield the right of way to all human-carrying aircraft.
(b) See and avoid all aircraft and a spotter must be used when appropriate. (AMA Document #540-D.)
(c) Not fly higher than approximately 400 feet above ground level within three (3) miles of an airport without notifying the airport operator.
(d) Not interfere with operations and traffic patterns at any airport, heliport or seaplane base except where there is a mixed use agreement.
(e) Not exceed a takeoff weight, including fuel, of 55 pounds unless in compliance with the AMA Large Model Airplane program. (AMA Document 520-A.)
(f) Ensure the aircraft is identified with the name and address or AMA number of the owner on the inside or affixed to the outside of the model aircraft. (This
does not apply to model aircraft flown indoors.)
(g) Not operate aircraft with metal-blade propellers or with gaseous boosts except for helicopters operated under the provisions of AMA Document #555.
(h) Not operate model aircraft while under the influence of alcohol or while using any drug that could adversely affect the pilot’s ability to safely control the
model.
(i) Not operate model aircraft carrying pyrotechnic devices that explode or burn, or any device which propels a projectile or drops any object that creates a
hazard to persons or property.
Exceptions:
Free Flight fuses or devices that burn producing smoke and are securely attached to the model aircraft during flight.
Rocket motors (using solid propellant) up to a G-series size may be used provided they remain attached to the model during flight. Model rockets may
be flown in accordance with the National Model Rocketry Safety Code but may not be launched from model aircraft.
Officially designated AMA Air Show Teams (AST) are authorized to use devices and practices as defined within the Team AMA Program Document.
(AMA Document #718.)
(j) Not operate a turbine-powered aircraft, unless in compliance with the AMA turbine regulations. (AMA Document #510-A.)
3. Model aircraft will not be flown in AMA sanctioned events, air shows or model demonstrations unless:
(a) The aircraft, control system and pilot skills have successfully demonstrated all maneuvers intended or anticipated prior to the specific event.
(b) An inexperienced pilot is assisted by an experienced pilot.
4. When and where required by rule, helmets must be properly worn and fastened. They must be OSHA, DOT, ANSI, SNELL or NOCSAE approved or comply
with comparable standards.
B. RADIO CONTROL (RC)
1. All pilots shall avoid flying directly over unprotected people, vessels, vehicles or structures and shall avoid endangerment of life and property of others.
2. A successful radio equipment ground-range check in accordance with manufacturer’s recommendations will be completed before the first flight of a new or
repaired model aircraft.
3. At all flying sites a safety line(s) must be established in front of which all flying takes place. (AMA Document #706.)
(a) Only personnel associated with flying the model aircraft are allowed at or in front of the safety line.
(b) At air shows or demonstrations, a straight safety line must be established.
(c) An area away from the safety line must be maintained for spectators.
(d) Intentional flying behind the safety line is prohibited.
4. RC model aircraft must use the radio-control frequencies currently allowed by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). Only individuals properly
licensed by the FCC are authorized to operate equipment on Amateur Band frequencies.
5. RC model aircraft will not knowingly operate within three (3) miles of any pre-existing flying site without a frequency-management agreement. (AMA
Documents #922 and #923.)
6. With the exception of events flown under official AMA Competition Regulations, excluding takeoff and landing, no powered model may be flown outdoors
closer than 25 feet to any individual, except for the pilot and the pilot's helper(s) located at the flightline.
7. Under no circumstances may a pilot or other person touch an outdoor model aircraft in flight while it is still under power, except to divert it from striking an
individual.
8. RC night flying requires a lighting system providing the pilot with a clear view of the model’s attitude and orientation at all times. Hand-held illumination
systems are inadequate for night flying operations.
9. The pilot of an RC model aircraft shall:
(a) Maintain control during the entire flight, maintaining visual contact without enhancement other than by corrective lenses prescribed for the pilot.
(b) Fly using the assistance of a camera or First-Person View (FPV) only in accordance with the procedures outlined in AMA Document #550.
(c) Fly using the assistance of autopilot or stabilization system only in accordance with the procedures outlined in AMA Document #560.
C. FREE FLIGHT
1. Must be at least 100 feet downwind of spectators and automobile parking when the model aircraft is launched.
2. Launch area must be clear of all individuals except mechanics, officials, and other fliers.
3. An effective device will be used to extinguish any fuse on the model aircraft after the fuse has completed its function.
D. CONTROL LINE
1. The complete control system (including the safety thong where applicable) must have an inspection and pull test prior to flying.
2. The pull test will be in accordance with the current Competition Regulations for the applicable model aircraft category.
3. Model aircraft not fitting a specific category shall use those pull-test requirements as indicated for Control Line Precision Aerobatics.
4. The flying area must be clear of all utility wires or poles and a model aircraft will not be flown closer than 50 feet to any above-ground electric utility lines.
5. The flying area must be clear of all nonessential participants and spectators before the engine is started.
Effective January 1, 2014
A. GENERAL: A model aircraft is a non-human-carrying aircraft capable of sustained flight in the atmosphere. It may not exceed limitations of this code and is
intended exclusively for sport, recreation, education and/or competition. All model flights must be conducted in accordance with this safety code and any
additional rules specific to the flying site.
1. Model aircraft will not be flown:
(a) In a careless or reckless manner.
(b) At a location where model aircraft activities are prohibited.
2. Model aircraft pilots will:
(a) Yield the right of way to all human-carrying aircraft.
(b) See and avoid all aircraft and a spotter must be used when appropriate. (AMA Document #540-D.)
(c) Not fly higher than approximately 400 feet above ground level within three (3) miles of an airport without notifying the airport operator.
(d) Not interfere with operations and traffic patterns at any airport, heliport or seaplane base except where there is a mixed use agreement.
(e) Not exceed a takeoff weight, including fuel, of 55 pounds unless in compliance with the AMA Large Model Airplane program. (AMA Document 520-A.)
(f) Ensure the aircraft is identified with the name and address or AMA number of the owner on the inside or affixed to the outside of the model aircraft. (This
does not apply to model aircraft flown indoors.)
(g) Not operate aircraft with metal-blade propellers or with gaseous boosts except for helicopters operated under the provisions of AMA Document #555.
(h) Not operate model aircraft while under the influence of alcohol or while using any drug that could adversely affect the pilot’s ability to safely control the
model.
(i) Not operate model aircraft carrying pyrotechnic devices that explode or burn, or any device which propels a projectile or drops any object that creates a
hazard to persons or property.
Exceptions:
Free Flight fuses or devices that burn producing smoke and are securely attached to the model aircraft during flight.
Rocket motors (using solid propellant) up to a G-series size may be used provided they remain attached to the model during flight. Model rockets may
be flown in accordance with the National Model Rocketry Safety Code but may not be launched from model aircraft.
Officially designated AMA Air Show Teams (AST) are authorized to use devices and practices as defined within the Team AMA Program Document.
(AMA Document #718.)
(j) Not operate a turbine-powered aircraft, unless in compliance with the AMA turbine regulations. (AMA Document #510-A.)
3. Model aircraft will not be flown in AMA sanctioned events, air shows or model demonstrations unless:
(a) The aircraft, control system and pilot skills have successfully demonstrated all maneuvers intended or anticipated prior to the specific event.
(b) An inexperienced pilot is assisted by an experienced pilot.
4. When and where required by rule, helmets must be properly worn and fastened. They must be OSHA, DOT, ANSI, SNELL or NOCSAE approved or comply
with comparable standards.
B. RADIO CONTROL (RC)
1. All pilots shall avoid flying directly over unprotected people, vessels, vehicles or structures and shall avoid endangerment of life and property of others.
2. A successful radio equipment ground-range check in accordance with manufacturer’s recommendations will be completed before the first flight of a new or
repaired model aircraft.
3. At all flying sites a safety line(s) must be established in front of which all flying takes place. (AMA Document #706.)
(a) Only personnel associated with flying the model aircraft are allowed at or in front of the safety line.
(b) At air shows or demonstrations, a straight safety line must be established.
(c) An area away from the safety line must be maintained for spectators.
(d) Intentional flying behind the safety line is prohibited.
4. RC model aircraft must use the radio-control frequencies currently allowed by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). Only individuals properly
licensed by the FCC are authorized to operate equipment on Amateur Band frequencies.
5. RC model aircraft will not knowingly operate within three (3) miles of any pre-existing flying site without a frequency-management agreement. (AMA
Documents #922 and #923.)
6. With the exception of events flown under official AMA Competition Regulations, excluding takeoff and landing, no powered model may be flown outdoors
closer than 25 feet to any individual, except for the pilot and the pilot's helper(s) located at the flightline.
7. Under no circumstances may a pilot or other person touch an outdoor model aircraft in flight while it is still under power, except to divert it from striking an
individual.
8. RC night flying requires a lighting system providing the pilot with a clear view of the model’s attitude and orientation at all times. Hand-held illumination
systems are inadequate for night flying operations.
9. The pilot of an RC model aircraft shall:
(a) Maintain control during the entire flight, maintaining visual contact without enhancement other than by corrective lenses prescribed for the pilot.
(b) Fly using the assistance of a camera or First-Person View (FPV) only in accordance with the procedures outlined in AMA Document #550.
(c) Fly using the assistance of autopilot or stabilization system only in accordance with the procedures outlined in AMA Document #560.
C. FREE FLIGHT
1. Must be at least 100 feet downwind of spectators and automobile parking when the model aircraft is launched.
2. Launch area must be clear of all individuals except mechanics, officials, and other fliers.
3. An effective device will be used to extinguish any fuse on the model aircraft after the fuse has completed its function.
D. CONTROL LINE
1. The complete control system (including the safety thong where applicable) must have an inspection and pull test prior to flying.
2. The pull test will be in accordance with the current Competition Regulations for the applicable model aircraft category.
3. Model aircraft not fitting a specific category shall use those pull-test requirements as indicated for Control Line Precision Aerobatics.
4. The flying area must be clear of all utility wires or poles and a model aircraft will not be flown closer than 50 feet to any above-ground electric utility lines.
5. The flying area must be clear of all nonessential participants and spectators before the engine is started.
N017RW
Premium Pilot
What is your interpretation of this?:
B. RADIO CONTROL (RC)
1. All pilots shall avoid flying directly over unprotected people, vessels, vehicles or structures and shall avoid endangerment of life and property of others.
B. RADIO CONTROL (RC)
1. All pilots shall avoid flying directly over unprotected people, vessels, vehicles or structures and shall avoid endangerment of life and property of others.
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I certainly could be wrong, so please take a lot at this page I found on their site and give me your opinion if I am miss understanding what was said within.
Link is:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2012RevisedModelFliersandNeighborsDOC.pdf
Link is:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2012RevisedModelFliersandNeighborsDOC.pdf
Yeah, I guess that would cover that. I attached the "unprotected" to all of the items - people, vessels, vehicles, and structures, but yeah, that makes more sense. They likely need to revise it a bit to be less focused on fixed wing (which usually fly at a field or park dedicated to it, and which don't have the safeguards that a Phantom - for example - has) and more inclusive of quads. If I drop the controls for or lose signal to an RC fixed wing, down it goes - and if you are about to overfly something, there's a decent risk that it will hit that thing. Not so with a Phantom. The date on this is 2014; before the dramatic increase in drone/quad usage.
N017RW
Premium Pilot
For me it comes down to this one sentence...
"Therefore, you should continue to urge the AMA members to avoid any flight over property where no permission has been granted."
N017RW
Premium Pilot
Fixed wings can travel great distances before 'landing'.
If there's a hundred ways to crash a FW, I've probably experienced 80% of them.
(no one's perfect
)That's probably true statistically. Most are probably around 100 IQ points or so. Myself included, lol.
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That was my take on it. More and more I believe we are going to find ourselves restricted to public land, and even then it could get ugly if those that govern "public" land start adding restrictions, i.e., commercial use only. I have to agree that the sky is falling, or at the best, getting smaller for hobby droners.
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