Phantom 4A/P camera vs. Mavic 2 Pro camera...

[GavinW]

DJI owns hasselblaad so everyone is overplaying what a big deal it is for the camera to be "haaselblaad" - It's literally just like a VW having Audi parts.

 

[Dave Pitman]

Hasselblad's known for medium format. Micro cameras are a different world. All experience is good but this is a new experiment for the Hasselblad crew lest we forget. It will be interesting to see.

 

[Raptorman0909]

From an operational standpoint the ability to use 4K60 without the problem we now have with it would be very beneficial particularly with respect to stuttering. You can use ND filters to slow the shutter speed but that creates its own set of problems and limitations such as reduced sharpness and detail. Being able to shoot at 60fps reduces the effect of stuttering by half mathematically but more than that perceptibly and should, in most cases, eliminate the need for ND filters at all. Yes, if you are real close to something and plan on doing fast pans or tilts then even 60fps is not going to be enough, but in point of fact most drone video is shot from much further away than ground based videos and with generally slower panning and tilting. I have ND filters for my P4P but seldom use them even at 4K30 as the distance and pixel speed generally limits the perceptibly of stuttering. Going to 60fps would further limit the need for ND filter to all but the most demanding close in shots with fast pans or tilts.


Brian

 

[Raptorman0909]

I'm not sure what else DJI has in mind for Hasselblad, but from a drone standpoint I think the main factor, at lest for now, is marketing. Yes, they may well glean some things about optics that will benefit our drones down the road, but, lets be honest, DJI likes having the name Hasselblad on there drones.

It is more likely that DJI plans something more with respect to handheld stabilizers for cinema cameras etc. I would not count DJI out of competing with Canon, Nikon and Sony in the consumer and pro camera markets for both still and video. Having Hasselblad on you camera couldn't hurt.


Brian

 

[With The Birds]

DJI owns hasselblaad so everyone is overplaying what a big deal it is for the camera to be "haaselblaad" - It's literally just like a VW having Audi parts.

It’s more like A German power tool manufacturer selling the well established name to a Chinese entity. They still make tools bearing the name but they are a shadow of the traditional quality and performance.

 

[shockwave199]

From an operational standpoint the ability to use 4K60 without the problem we now have with it would be very beneficial particularly with respect to stuttering. You can use ND filters to slow the shutter speed but that creates its own set of problems and limitations such as reduced sharpness and detail. Being able to shoot at 60fps reduces the effect of stuttering by half mathematically but more than that perceptibly and should, in most cases, eliminate the need for ND filters at all. Yes, if you are real close to something and plan on doing fast pans or tilts then even 60fps is not going to be enough, but in point of fact most drone video is shot from much further away than ground based videos and with generally slower panning and tilting. I have ND filters for my P4P but seldom use them even at 4K30 as the distance and pixel speed generally limits the perceptibly of stuttering. Going to 60fps would further limit the need for ND filter to all but the most demanding close in shots with fast pans or tilts.

Define studdering. I have found that regardless of frame rates, manual shutter speeds and manual exposure settings, you absolutely need ND filters for the proper shutter speed and exposure. Not to mention, without ND filters you'll get prop reflection flash in your shot too. I'd love to fly without ND filters but the video is much too compromised without the right filter on according to the light situation.

 

[NewbieForever]

I'm in a similar position and although the new machine has some great tech, I'm asking myself what will it do to make my work better.

Is the sensor better? Or is it the same?
The lens has a slightly longer focal length which could be good in some situations but really wouldn't make much difference.
The portability would be a great feature - but is it worth selling 2 Phantoms and a bunch of batteries to get two new drones and everything to keep them flying.

I think I'll take my time and look for camera reviews.
Meantime I still have a machine that is going to keep producing images that are probably very similar.
I wonder what they are going to put into the P5?

I enjoyed the See the Bigger Picture Immensely and as I have an assignment in two weeks in Italy and they said they could delver instantly I pulled the trigger and ordered the Mavic 2 PRO with a ton of batts, and all the other gack we all know is needed to keep it running, even though I could not order an extra AC Charger....

This was in the hope I would have my money making and client KNOCK THEIR SOCKS OF P4 PRO in a tinier package with NEW COLOR SCIENCE to boot...

A bit later I realized I was jumping the gun a bit. No 60 fps and its better in post slo mo quality, no mechanical shutter and we all know the reason for this feature.
I cancelled my order for these reasons and they delayed shipping my order on top of it.

Anyway...I thought I had better things, like marketing expenses at the moment to spend the money on, until I see more reports. I am sure everyone that ordered will love M2P, but like most in this forum I want to wait for a P5 and what it has to offer.

Still willing to travel with the P4P.... I am not scaling El Capitan in Yosemite anytime soon, BUT I HOPE THE M2P will soon, it will be spectacular!

BTW Hasselblad since the beginning never made the glass that went into their extraordinary camera systems, mostly ZEISS....(there was some EKTAR LENSES in the beginning) The mechanical cameras were like precision PORCSHE engineered masterpieces. We all hope and trust this branded system, with the reported SONY sensor?, will live up to Hasselblad Sweden's incredible legacy. Victor Hasselblad was an amazing gentleman and genius, and to see his efforts be transported to the moon and now with all the adventurer remote pilot cinematographers out there, must give his spirt joy! It certainly does mine!

 

[Russ43Phantom]

Camera specs depend on your intended use of the video or image. Getting a Nikon 750 with a full sized sensor (and large pixels) really improved HDR and low light photography. I could shoot at ISO 3200 (with no noise), had better dynamic range and color. On the other hand, I recently sold my P4P in favor of keeping my Mavic Air because, for my applications, I could see no difference in video quality. In the following video, the opening fly-in, the closing orbit, and the closing fly-away were done with the P4P. The rest of the video scenes were done with the Mavic Air. I can't tell the difference. BUT ... I really like being able to toss the Mavic Air into my regular camera bag. Can you differentiate image quality from the P4P or the Mavic Air in this video? When viewed on a iMac 27" screen, I can't.

 

[Dave Pitman]

Can you differentiate image quality from the P4P or the Mavic Air in this video?

Post links to the original clips and I'll have a look. The MA surely wins on portability and stealth. Stability, range and IQ goes to the P4P. If the MA does it all for you and you're happy, there's nothing wrong with that!

 

[Russ43Phantom]

Post links to the original clips and I'll have a look. The MA surely wins on portability and stealth. Stability, range and IQ goes to the P4P. If the MA does it all for you and you're happy, there's nothing wrong with that!

As the Mavic Air has newer and faster chips, the sampling frequency of the gimbal and drone position is faster. It also lets me set very low response rates for all joy stick actions. So ... I find no difference in stability or smoothness of the flight. Your observation about the "stealth" factor is also a plus. Fewer bystanders even realize you are flying the drone. The other side of this coin is your ability to do VLOS is harder. I also like the obstacle avoidance and APAS functions of the Mavic Air ... again, I believe they are made possible by the faster chip speed in the newer drone.

 

[David Boulanger]

Define studdering. I have found that regardless of frame rates, manual shutter speeds and manual exposure settings, you absolutely need ND filters for the proper shutter speed and exposure. Not to mention, without ND filters you'll get prop reflection flash in your shot too. I'd love to fly without ND filters but the video is much too compromised without the right filter on according to the light situation.

Yes, ND 8 is required for beach and bright situations.

 

[bkushner]

I'm in a similar position and although the new machine has some great tech, I'm asking myself what will it do to make my work better.

Is the sensor better? Or is it the same?
The lens has a slightly longer focal length which could be good in some situations but really wouldn't make much difference.
The portability would be a great feature - but is it worth selling 2 Phantoms and a bunch of batteries to get two new drones and everything to keep them flying.

I think I'll take my time and look for camera reviews.
Meantime I still have a machine that is going to keep producing images that are probably very similar.
I wonder what they are going to put into the P5?

I wonder if we will see anymore Phantoms...Also the M2P does not do 4K60fps

 

[Raptorman0909]

Define studdering. I have found that regardless of frame rates, manual shutter speeds and manual exposure settings, you absolutely need ND filters for the proper shutter speed and exposure. Not to mention, without ND filters you'll get prop reflection flash in your shot too. I'd love to fly without ND filters but the video is much too compromised without the right filter on according to the light situation.

I said stuttering and by that I mean the visible difference from one frame to the next. The slower the frame rate the greater the motion between frames making that more noticeable. And no, you do NOT absolutely need an ND filter to get proper exposure as exposure can be controlled with aperture, ISO, and shutter speed alone. The reason you are suggested to use ND filter is to slow the shutter speed and the main reason for that is to reduce the effects of stuttering. But, and I've mentioned this numerous times, when you are farther away and make slow panning or tilting motions the amount of movement between frame is small enough that stuttering is not apparent -- that's just how the Math works out. OTH, if you are real close and are doing quick pans or tilts then the relative motion between frames is greater and stuttering is more apparent.

Much of the history here is driven by traditional film and TV industry were most of the shots are done very close and at lower frame rates -- 8mm film was often shot at 18fps while cinema has usually been 24fps. At those frame rates and when filming close you have to lower the shutter speeds to limit apparent stuttering. But, again, drone video is another beast with higher frame rates (30fps or higher) and much greater distance to subject in most cases. When you look at it the thing that matters is the rate and object is moving across the FOV horizontally and/or vertically -- I refer to that as pixel velocity or speed.

If you look at this video I shot last year using no ND filters with a shutter speed faster than 1/1000 you will not see much stuttering but you will see sharp detailed images.

Another video shot with just about the same settings does reveal stuttering when panning with objects close by. At about 4:30 to 4:42, while panning to the right and close to some formations, you do see stuttering that's fairly noticeable but again that's do to being close and panning or tilting fairly fast.

Sadly, too many of us here things like, "the cinematic approach requires ..." and its assumed that all the rules developed when film was shot at 18-24fps and at close range is the same at higher frame rates and greater distances -- it is not. It can work the other way though as a photography rule of shooting at a shutter speed the reciprocal of the focal length worked fairly well with film, but with the much higher resolution and detail of modern DSLR's you really need to be shooting with a shutter speed at least 2X that -- even with IS.


Brian

 

[GadgetGuy]

I have a repeating issue with image tearing that appear in almost every video and sometimes as many a a half dozen times in a single flight. I believe that is mostly down to the limits of the image processor which, although superior to the one in the Inspire 1 Pro, was still marginal at 4K30 let alone 4K60.
Brian

I, too, had the exact same video glitching issue on 12 different P4P's, and discovered that it was the 4160x2160 60fps 4K setting that is still unstable. Too much information being processed, resulting in choking. Change your 4K 60fps setting to 3840x2160 (which coincidentally the DJI 4K default) and the processor is able to keep up, without any video glitches. It was an epiphany for me. Happy P4P camper ever since. Try it. You'll like it!

 

[GadgetGuy]

DJI owns hasselblaad so everyone is overplaying what a big deal it is for the camera to be "haaselblaad" - It's literally just like a VW having Audi parts.

"DJI owns a controlling majority interest in Hasselblad" is more accurate. DJI is still not the outright owner of Hasselblad.

8-26-18: Edited---Thanks to @Meta4 for the correction

 

[Meta4]

A bit later I realized I was jumping the gun a bit. No 60 fps and its better in post slo mo quality, no mechanical shutter and we all know the reason for this feature.

You do realise that the mechanical shutter only works for still photography?

 

[shockwave199]

I said stuttering and by that I mean the visible difference from one frame to the next. The slower the frame rate the greater the motion between frames making that more noticeable. And no, you do NOT absolutely need an ND filter to get proper exposure as exposure can be controlled with aperture, ISO, and shutter speed alone. The reason you are suggested to use ND filter is to slow the shutter speed and the main reason for that is to reduce the effects of stuttering. But, and I've mentioned this numerous times, when you are farther away and make slow panning or tilting motions the amount of movement between frame is small enough that stuttering is not apparent -- that's just how the Math works out. OTH, if you are real close and are doing quick pans or tilts then the relative motion between frames is greater and stuttering is more apparent.

Much of the history here is driven by traditional film and TV industry were most of the shots are done very close and at lower frame rates -- 8mm film was often shot at 18fps while cinema has usually been 24fps. At those frame rates and when filming close you have to lower the shutter speeds to limit apparent stuttering. But, again, drone video is another beast with higher frame rates (30fps or higher) and much greater distance to subject in most cases. When you look at it the thing that matters is the rate and object is moving across the FOV horizontally and/or vertically -- I refer to that as pixel velocity or speed.

If you look at this video I shot last year using no ND filters with a shutter speed faster than 1/1000 you will not see much stuttering but you will see sharp detailed images.

Another video shot with just about the same settings does reveal stuttering when panning with objects close by. At about 4:30 to 4:42, while panning to the right and close to some formations, you do see stuttering that's fairly noticeable but again that's do to being close and panning or tilting fairly fast.

Sadly, too many of us here things like, "the cinematic approach requires ..." and its assumed that all the rules developed when film was shot at 18-24fps and at close range is the same at higher frame rates and greater distances -- it is not. It can work the other way though as a photography rule of shooting at a shutter speed the reciprocal of the focal length worked fairly well with film, but with the much higher resolution and detail of modern DSLR's you really need to be shooting with a shutter speed at least 2X that -- even with IS.


Brian

Sorry man but your not getting the best video results there high shutter speeds and without a ND filter. The high shutter speed flickering, which I believe you're calling studdering, remains apparent. If that works for you, all good. But you're not getting away with just aperture and high shutter speeds to dial in exposure. It's much better to have the right ND filter on to allow for the proper shutter speed and a better aperture of around 5.6 or so, rather than closing it down all the way. Then if you want a bit less motion blur you can raise the shutter speed a little higher than just double the frame rate. Nothing is a hard and fast rule but you'll only stand to gain flexibility in exposure settings by using an ND filter. Without one, all your exposure settings have to be dialed in to make up for the fact that you're not using an ND filter. And gladly, the mp2 has filters for the lens. It's well advised to use them.

 

[RPP]

Here’s the comparison. I am primarily a stills photographer with some video work on the side, so IQ is paramount for me. I was thinking of upgrading to the P4P v2 (recently sold my P4P). The mechanical shutter on the Phantom is important for my use. On the other hand, the Mavic has a slightly wider temperature tolerance which could make a difference in colder weather operation.

Comparison of Consumer Camera Drones – Spark, Mavic, and Phantom – DJI

 

[Raptorman0909]

I, too, had the exact same video glitching issue on 12 different P4P's, and discovered that it was the 4160x2160 60fps 4K setting that is still unstable. Too much information being processed, resulting in choking. Change your 4K 60fps setting to 3840x2160 (which coincidentally the DJI 4K default) and the processor is able to keep up, without any video glitches. It was an epiphany for me. Happy P4P camper ever since. Try it. You'll like it!

I don't use 4160x2160 I use the UHD version of 3840x2160 at 30fps. But, in either case, the video glitching is do to marginal image processor capabilities. The glitching happens with high end Sandisk of Samsung uSD cards so I don't think its the cards.


Brian

 

[Raptorman0909]

Sorry man but your not getting the best video results there high shutter speeds and without a ND filter. The high shutter speed flickering, which I believe you're calling studdering, remains apparent. If that works for you, all good. But you're not getting away with just aperture and high shutter speeds to dial in exposure. It's much better to have the right ND filter on to allow for the proper shutter speed and a better aperture of around 5.6 or so, rather than closing it down all the way. Then if you want a bit less motion blur you can raise the shutter speed a little higher than just double the frame rate. Nothing is a hard and fast rule but you'll only stand to gain flexibility in exposure settings by using an ND filter. Without one, all your exposure settings have to be dialed in to make up for the fact that you're not using an ND filter. And gladly, the mp2 has filters for the lens. It's well advised to use them.

No, I use the word 'stuTTer' not stuDDer. But, yes, flickering is another way to describe it though a bit less accurately -- the video isn't flickering it jumping from one image to another with a noticeable difference between frames.

Slowing the shutter speed down when not needed has the effect of lowering the effective resolution -- no way around that. So, if you shoot at 4K you're really getting, maybe, HD detail if there's any motion at all.

Let's play a game, not that I'm a gamer, but bare with me a second. Suppose 10 years from now we have monitors/TV's and cameras capable of 8K and 240fps -- would you recommend a shutter speed of 1/500 at 240fps or would you be shooting at 24fps and 1/50?

Stuttering, or as you call it flickering, is a consequence of: frame rate, closeness to subject, relative motion of subject, and shutter speed -- adjusting any of these factors effects the perceptibility of stuttering and not simply the shutter speed.


Brian