Heretical Thoughts

[David Cooke]

Definition is not out of date IMO. It seems all encompassing to me.

How is an Drone, UAV, SUAS, UAS not an aircraft?
Blimps, Dirigibles, Zeppelins, Hot air balloons are.

You may be being too pedantic.

But at any rate define as you wish.
It's not a problem for me.

Not a problem for me either . . . but I think it's worth trying to differentiate UAVs/drones as a special case of "heavier-than-air" vehicle so that new regulations can be written that are not just old "aircraft" regulations made to FIT no matter if they should or not.

 

[N017RW]

The majority, if not all RC pilots have crashed numerous times. The majority of certified pilots have not crashed a single time.

The majority, if not all RC pilots build their own aircraft. The majority of licensed pilots have never built a single airplane.

 

[David Cooke]

The majority, if not all RC pilots build their own aircraft. The majority of licensed pilots have never built a single airplane.

There's an important distinction! . . can I use that?

 

[N017RW]

There's an important distinction! . . can I use that?

Sure. It's just a play on SoundByte's seemingly off-topic remark.

 

[42FrankZ]

Ship operators are often called pilots too. As in "we need a pilot to guide us into port." So there.

You need a master's license to be in charge of a ship. Pilots are the guys that get on board and have local knowledge of the port. They don't touch anything, they inform the master and things get done.

 

[Erised]

Let's not get stuck on words, If it counters the force of gravity it's an aircraft, a paper plane is an aircraft, I can build one in 10 seconds but it does not make me an engineer. I can pilot my P4 or my car and my snowmobile but it doesn't make me a 747 pilot. A pilot controls the craft that's it, It's not like OOOOO he's a pilot!. I don't fly in the movies I just control my craft so I'm must be a pilot. I know I don't have the same qualifications or responsability, pilot is just a word. Can you drive? can you drive a transport truck or school bus? NO well you can't be a driver then if you just drive a car. Just a word.

 

[larrym]

You need a master's license to be in charge of a ship. Pilots are the guys that get on board and have local knowledge of the port. They don't touch anything, they inform the master and things get done.

You're right about that. My point was, they're called pilots. People also pilot submarines. So airplane operators are not only ones called "pilots."

 

[stones]

It would appear that the OP is trying to discuss that drones (in particular, phantoms) could use rules/regs that are more in tune for what they are. Which I think most of us could agree are not a full blown aircraft, in the simplest sense, anyways. Forward moving thought for the hobby, imho.

 

[SoundByte]

The majority, if not all RC pilots build their own aircraft. The majority of licensed pilots have never built a single airplane.

Absolutely, and that fact does not make them aeronautical engineers. Notwithstanding all the similarities, there are major differences. As an inactive PP like myself, do you not agree?

 

[Peter Hartmann]

[QUOTE.............qualified to fly a Cessna.
BQ[/QUOTE]

May I respectfully suggest the term "fly a Cessna" is but one of many examples of how our language his been modified down thru the years.

The last few generations have seen less and less attention to "precision of speech". So the above quote is certainly not unusual.

Of course if one wants to be technical correct...a "language purist"...one can call us, when using our drones, DRONE OPERATORS. I personally like that term and use it myself.

And, to further illustrate what a "language purist" I am, I do not say I "fly" - I call myself an "airplane driver". You will see the term "airplane driver" more and more these days, as more and more of us do NOT want to be confused with people who SAY they fly, but in fact manage to get a ride in the back of someone ELSE's airplane.

Of course CESSNA does not fly. It is a FACTORY where they USED to make cute little two seat trainers, but havnt done so in - what...? some FORTY years now?

What comes out of the CESSNA factory now are long range "executive" style jets - very luxurious, in the tens of millions of dollars. And, of course, the jet-prop Caravan. Those are only about three million !

I think they will still make you their model 172, 182, and 206 propeller planes - for the better part of a quarter million dollars - don't know how many of those are made each year.

BOTTOM LINE - I respectfully suggest we don't get too worked up about someone else's use of words and phrases ! Life is fun ! "Don't sweat the small stuff"..... life isn't a "dress rehearsal"...NOW is the time to have some fun !

 

[Peterthedroneguy]

The trouble with any regulation of UAV's is who will enforce it? The police force in this country already has way too many enforcement responsibilities. That's why the regulations have been so small for hobbiests. No one could efficiently stop us so instead if they keep the rules vague and the community is responsible and self polices our actions there is no need for the government to get more involved.

 

[rvfpat]

This post really brightened up my day. Make me chuckle. But as a very busy Vision enhancement Specialist I must go clean more windows. ..

 

[anotherlab]

The trouble with any regulation of UAV's is who will enforce it? The police force in this country already has way too many enforcement responsibilities. That's why the regulations have been so small for hobbiests. No one could efficiently stop us so instead if they keep the rules vague and the community is responsible and self polices our actions there is no need for the government to get more involved.

The problem is that even though most of the community is responsible, there are a few exceptions and that's what causes the problems.

I don't want vague rules, I want reasonable rules. If I am flying my UAV where it is allowed, I want the legal protection from someone trying to harass me or trying to take out my UAV.

 

[David Cooke]

Everyone on this site is nuts, think they are legal experts/lawyers & have way too much free time.

If you let general aviation define how we can use drones by slotting them in to "airplanes" and Pilot" rules you might as well hang it up now. That's the only paradigm they know. People need to think more critically or there will be no change

 

[Bakersfield Quad]

[QUOTE.............qualified to fly a Cessna.
BQ

May I respectfully suggest the term "fly a Cessna" is but one of many examples of how our language his been modified down thru the years.

The last few generations have seen less and less attention to "precision of speech". So the above quote is certainly not unusual.

Of course if one wants to be technical correct...a "language purist"...one can call us, when using our drones, DRONE OPERATORS. I personally like that term and use it myself.

And, to further illustrate what a "language purist" I am, I do not say I "fly" - I call myself an "airplane driver". You will see the term "airplane driver" more and more these days, as more and more of us do NOT want to be confused with people who SAY they fly, but in fact manage to get a ride in the back of someone ELSE's airplane.

Of course CESSNA does not fly. It is a FACTORY where they USED to make cute little two seat trainers, but havnt done so in - what...? some FORTY years now?

What comes out of the CESSNA factory now are long range "executive" style jets - very luxurious, in the tens of millions of dollars. And, of course, the jet-prop Caravan. Those are only about three million !

I think they will still make you their model 172, 182, and 206 propeller planes - for the better part of a quarter million dollars - don't know how many of those are made each year.

BOTTOM LINE - I respectfully suggest we don't get too worked up about someone else's use of words and phrases ! Life is fun ! "Don't sweat the small stuff"..... life isn't a "dress rehearsal"...NOW is the time to have some fun ![/QUOTE]
Home

Wow, might want to tell Cessna that, they make some really nice airplanes, take a look, check out the prop planes, single engine , man don't those look a lot like the ones made say, 40 years ago. Cost is a bit higher now, but still great airplanes. Go out and take a ride, take the controls and see how you fare.

 

[David Cooke]

May I respectfully suggest the term "fly a Cessna" is but one of many examples of how our language his been modified down thru the years.

The last few generations have seen less and less attention to "precision of speech". So the above quote is certainly not unusual.

Of course if one wants to be technical correct...a "language purist"...one can call us, when using our drones, DRONE OPERATORS. I personally like that term and use it myself.

And, to further illustrate what a "language purist" I am, I do not say I "fly" - I call myself an "airplane driver". You will see the term "airplane driver" more and more these days, as more and more of us do NOT want to be confused with people who SAY they fly, but in fact manage to get a ride in the back of someone ELSE's airplane.

Of course CESSNA does not fly. It is a FACTORY where they USED to make cute little two seat trainers, but havnt done so in - what...? some FORTY years now?

What comes out of the CESSNA factory now are long range "executive" style jets - very luxurious, in the tens of millions of dollars. And, of course, the jet-prop Caravan. Those are only about three million !

I think they will still make you their model 172, 182, and 206 propeller planes - for the better part of a quarter million dollars - don't know how many of those are made each year.

BOTTOM LINE - I respectfully suggest we don't get too worked up about someone else's use of words and phrases ! Life is fun ! "Don't sweat the small stuff"..... life isn't a "dress rehearsal"...NOW is the time to have some fun !

Like your answer . . my thoughts are pretty much aligned . . ie: not to take things so seriously. . . but being off the ground is serious stuff and regulations RARELY get formulated . . . so when they make new ones and pour the concrete on them they become next to impossible to change. As an ex-military Flight Safety Officer and combat flying instructor, I tend to prefer people follow some sort of rules and I don't like the idea of just letting this rule making process just happen (New rules - based on OLD paradigms). I'm just looking to inject some "critical thinking" into the process. . . so we can all go out and have some fun without fear of being arrested or fined by someone who is upset that things are changing in this world. Pizza delivery is a whole different thing.

 

[Peter Hartmann]

Wow, might want to tell Cessna that, they make some really nice airplanes, take a look, check out the prop planes, single engine , man don't those look a lot like the ones made say, 40 years ago. Cost is a bit higher now, but still great airplanes. Go out and take a ride, take the controls and see how you fare.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
May I respectfully disagree with your post - at least in part.

Yes, I agree - the CESSNA company makes some pretty neat airplanes.

But I am not clear on your suggesting I try and tell that company anything....the CESSNA AIRCRAFT COMPANY would probably not be at all interested in anything I have to say!

Wife and I did own at one time a Turbo 210 "Centurion" ( a 200 mph turbo-charged gasoline-powered hi-performance aircraft - would love to buy a new one - but they havn't made now for some 40 years.

For some years now, that company's primary sales activity has been in long-range hi performance luxury jets - the cheapest of which, as I noted earlier, is at least several million dollars. No, you & I cant just "take the controls".

My understanding is that in addition to a pilot's license, you would need a "type-rating" for that product line.

Can you pay cash ? I I would be surprised if any insurance company would cover you until you had many hours of additional "time-in-type" in ADDITION to a "type-rating", and of course you couldn't buy the thing thru a finance company ithout insurance.

I don't think you need a separate "type-rating" to buy and get insurance/financing, etc. on their Caravan ( jet powered propeller line) - but I rather doubt if anyone would do that without the training the factory provides - consider this - you screw up a "hot start" on a turbine motor, and you've just blown the better part of a half million dollars for that alone.

I understand they, on "special order - substantial cash deposit up front, please) will still make you one of their gasoline-powered prop. planes - I read someplace that a 182 or 206 would be up around half a million - unless you had the cash, again...you'd have to deal with a finance company, so again...insurance..."approved" training, etc....before you are going to be sitting at the controls.

My recommendation is that we forget about CESSNA issues for this particular "thread"; not clear that any of this is relevant to the issues raised by others here.

May I respectfully suggest my previous "BOTTOM LINE" recommendation is appropriate here ?

Specifically, let's help each other learn more by responding to the subject-matter of a particular "thread". I also suggest it would be most helpful to the learning experience this site offers if we confine our contribution in any particular "thread" to an area in which we are technically competent.

 

[David Cooke]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
May I respectfully disagree with your post - at least in part.

Yes, I agree - the CESSNA company makes some pretty neat airplanes.

But I am not clear on your suggesting I try and tell that company anything....the CESSNA AIRCRAFT COMPANY would probably not be at all interested in anything I have to say!

Wife and I did own at one time a Turbo 210 "Centurion" ( a 200 mph turbo-charged gasoline-powered hi-performance aircraft - would love to buy a new one - but they havn't made now for some 40 years.

For some years now, that company's primary sales activity has been in long-range hi performance luxury jets - the cheapest of which, as I noted earlier, is at least several million dollars. No, you & I cant just "take the controls".

My understanding is that in addition to a pilot's license, you would need a "type-rating" for that product line.

Can you pay cash ? I I would be surprised if any insurance company would cover you until you had many hours of additional "time-in-type" in ADDITION to a "type-rating", and of course you couldn't buy the thing thru a finance company ithout insurance.

I don't think you need a separate "type-rating" to buy and get insurance/financing, etc. on their Caravan ( jet powered propeller line) - but I rather doubt if anyone would do that without the training the factory provides - consider this - you screw up a "hot start" on a turbine motor, and you've just blown the better part of a half million dollars for that alone.

I understand they, on "special order - substantial cash deposit up front, please) will still make you one of their gasoline-powered prop. planes - I read someplace that a 182 or 206 would be up around half a million - unless you had the cash, again...you'd have to deal with a finance company, so again...insurance..."approved" training, etc....before you are going to be sitting at the controls.

My recommendation is that we forget about CESSNA issues for this particular "thread"; not clear that any of this is relevant to the issues raised by others here.

May I respectfully suggest my previous "BOTTOM LINE" recommendation is appropriate here ?

Specifically, let's help each other learn more by responding to the subject-matter of a particular "thread". I also suggest it would be most helpful to the learning experience this site offers if we confine our contribution in any particular "thread" to an area in which we are technically competent.

I like your attitude and your " learn from the experience of others" especially here in these threads. You may have fixated too much on my using the term CESSNA . . I meant it as a reference to "General Aviation" . . ie just about anyone who flys. Type ratings and insurance, aside just about anyone can own a small aircraft . . and some pretty zippy ones too . . for quite a bit less than a new car . . does not make them a pilot without some knowledge and practiced skills. . but many RC modellers and fliers would certainly be considered "Pilots" . . . few recreational UAV operators could handle a typical quadcopter in ATTITUDE mode even let alone unstabilized for more than a few seconds. When it's your a** is on the line people tend to be more careful about becoming qualified and caring about the rules. UAV operators need to think in those terms and become pilots.

 

[andy_k]

Like your answer . . my thoughts are pretty much aligned . . ie: not to take things so seriously. . . but being off the ground is serious stuff and regulations RARELY get formulated . . . so when they make new ones and pour the concrete on them they become next to impossible to change. As an ex-military Flight Safety Officer and combat flying instructor, I tend to prefer people follow some sort of rules and I don't like the idea of just letting this rule making process just happen (New rules - based on OLD paradigms). I'm just looking to inject some "critical thinking" into the process. . . so we can all go out and have some fun without fear of being arrested or fined by someone who is upset that things are changing in this world. Pizza delivery is a whole different thing.

It's not much use expecting the Police to deal with every aspect of this - they simply have too much work to do already but (as we are having 'heretical thoughts' ) this could all be simply resolved by making joining an (AMA/BMFA) affiliated flying club mandatory. Neither of those organisations insist on only flying from their own fields. Both organisations offer an insurance policy as part of the membership and both have the right people involved to give new flyers/operators enough insight into the ground rules before they go breaking all the rules. It also makes everything 'local' and allows the clubs to 'police' any stupidity as word travels very quickly. The only thing left for the Police to do would be to ask to see proof of membership and then act appropriately - just like with a driving licence.

 

[stones]

Personally, if I would be required to join a club in order to fly...think I'd pass, on flying. Anymore than I'd want it to be mandatory to belong to a "club" to ride the bike. Kind of like my freedom, if you know what I mean.