URGENT: Tighten your props with wrench

Reversed motor should show up in video evidence? If a motor stops the rotational inertia would be 2/1 if the other motors keep spinning. But if a motor reversed it would be 3/1 which would indeed be visible during a failure.

Or is the flight controller fast and smart enough to dampen the effect, causing a straight down failure.
 
This makes more sense, as a developer, this looks like SDK bug where they are using a signed int (short int and int: -32,767 to 32,767) that is overflowing.
I hate closed source, I said it in a different thread, but DJI is the Apple of quadcopter, if anything I hate about Apple is their closed source, only if they let the community helps but I guess becoming a billion $ company is more important.

yorlik said:
good points herkam. makes me rethink my conclusions. Paul showed only single direction command is given on pwm sig, so like I said, no reversal command can be sent. One down. But we do not have details on the esc velocity loop controller, so we cannot know if it is going unstable and telling the fets to reverse direction or just as bad, command fets in way to effectively try to stop motor with full current. so esc itself can still be doing something not so nice. No control system should allow ANY variable to go to saturation, and we can see currentCurrent does, so there is still some issue.

but more thinking and i have to remember the currentCurrent variable is current draw from/to(?) battery; since it is hi values like -17amp to idle in sky, -24 to rise, -12 to go down, all values that seem to make sense, I assumed when it is reported as large + value it meant the motor or some motor reversed direction suddenly. dumb assumption since the current is still coming from the battery, not going back into it. When a pwm esc like this, capable of reversing direction, suddenly reverses or commands speed to drop much slower than it is going, the motor becomes a generator and does reverse the current flow - that is what I am used to in the industrial world. it could still happen here, but the problem you made me consider is that the associated battery voltage is going down, not up at these reported current reversals - means the motor is not regening into the battery if that data is accurate... so it may mean their math is off and the 32676, only 1 bit away from the 2^15 probably digital word being used to scale the current, is wrong. How would this effect the smart battery? I do not know, but it sounds dangerous. since it is typical to have signed 2^16 bit word give +/-32767 values, it may be a math issue and really mean n o reversal of current but rather they mean -32.675amps. this would make sense, especially since the big reversed number seems to stay 2-3-4 seconds at a time. A large speed change would likely happen in milliseconds instead. but it may give dji pause to consider if this is a math mistake only, how it may affect smart battery response. The instability issue in the esc is still potentially real and can still potentially explain the quick speed drop which obviously is the cause of props flying off. and I have not tried to compile prop off reports, but doesn't it seem they became much more prevelant after going to 2.1 esc? I will add this comment to dji SDK bug report I entered. Without more data, I will continue to wrench tighten my props so no amount of motor sudden speed drop will unscrew them. I bet none of the prop unscrew cases ever happened to anyone who wrench tightened them. why take the chance?
 
Yorlik...
I am not familiar with the Phantom SDK but I know that the P2 motors are 3-phase Brushless DC (BLDC) type. Hence, the BLDC controller chip will be reading three distinct phase currents corresponding to each of the three windings. And, normally, they will be changing signs, i.e., sourcing and sinking current directions. I think what you have read are the phase currents and not the reverse-braking phenomena that kills the FETs. The phase commutation sequence is fixed in one direction by the BLDC controller chip using the back-emf voltage of each winding as feedback. (I see no hall-effect sensors on the schematic.) Also, the magnitude of those current values are unrealistic for those tiny BLDC motors. (You may want to check your SDK scaling factor.) Hope this gives us more confidence and enlightenment.
...EdSa
 
Not trying to detour the thread's direction about the design of the ESC and control logic.

Curious if anyone has ever reversed the ESC wires to drive a motor backwards from its designed rotation. Sure would answer the question for the prop's ability to spin off if hand tightened or otherwise. I'd bet they would if only hand tightened.

I tested the "self tightening" design by threading the props on by one turn and then starting the motors to idle. There was no way to remove the props afterwards by hand, the tool was required to remove... So, they are self tightening. I hand tighten only, since I'm lazy. ;)

Edited to add: You Pep's with the new fragile ESC may not want to try the suggested self tightening method described above....
 
RichWest, it's not easy to reverse direction of a 3-phase brushless dc motor by swapping wires, like a brushed dc one. Need to know the motor commutation spec. Me thinks that it is not really spinning, or even driven, on the opposite direction. Otherwise, it is so systemic and basic that none of these P2s will even ever work at all!...EdSa
 
I'm just talking about flipping the red and yellow wires at the ESC. Don't over think...it's really that simple.
 
yorlik said:
flyNfrank said:
What app and flight logger are you using to gather your info?

I spend more time reading my data then I do flying. Based on your answer to my question will help explain things better.

Me too lately... Ken argo's Ultimate flight.

BTW, you asked if you could put Paul (na5n) 7 page pdf up here with sticky and appropriate credit to him; he said ok. You can see his written approval here:
http://forum.dji.com/forum.php?mod=view ... D1&lang=en
I have no clue how to do that so leave it to you if you still want to. thanks.

I can't remember anything about na5n. I do know I didn't mention anything about sticking his info because I don't have that ability here. As for the flight logger you are using, currently you can NOT go by any of the data you see there. That logger is not totally reliable, yet. I'm sure Ken will announce when that logger is 100% rock ready. Btw, nobody has a 100% fully functionable logger for the new sdk setup. Flytrex is the closest. Use their logger to research your data.
 
RichWest said:
Not trying to detour the thread's direction about the design of the ESC and control logic.

Curious if anyone has ever reversed the ESC wires to drive a motor backwards from its designed rotation. Sure would answer the question for the prop's ability to spin off if hand tightened or otherwise. I'd bet they would if only hand tightened......
If it was as simple to reverse the wire(s) to the motor to get it to run backwards, why would DJI need to make different CW and CCW motors?
 
RichWest said:
I'm just talking about flipping the red and yellow wires at the ESC. Don't over think...it's really that simple.


Yup. It's just that simple.

Why do people post about things they've either never tried or don't know as fact?
 
flyNfrank said:
yorlik said:
flyNfrank said:
What app and flight logger are you using to gather your info?

I can't remember anything about na5n. I do know I didn't mention anything about sticking his info because I don't have that ability here. As for the flight logger you are using, currently you can NOT go by any of the data you see there. That logger is not totally reliable, yet. I'm sure Ken will announce when that logger is 100% rock ready. Btw, nobody has a 100% fully functionable logger for the new sdk setup. Flytrex is the closest. Use their logger to research your data.


Frank - Yorlik pulled his data from the DJI SDK interface - the same point Flytrex and Ken use..... It's the only open port to get the info. Same source..... You should be asking why they (Flytrap and Ken) don't see the same results - not what Yorlik is reporting!

Maybe this is the "spike" anomaly in the Flytrex battery voltage line that they are trying to flatten out. If Yorlik is correct - you don't want to flatten the spike out as you would mask the anomaly he raises that he is asking for DJI response on......
 
flyNfrank said:
yorlik said:
flyNfrank said:
BTW, you asked if you could put Paul (na5n) 7 page pdf up here with sticky and appropriate credit to him; he said ok.

I can't remember anything about na5n. I do know I didn't mention anything about sticking his info because I don't have that ability here.

my bad, sorry, thought you said sticky when you said this instead:

IflyinWY said:
Saweeeet, :D :D :D

I don't see a copyright anywhere. I could post it as a webpage for everyone to see, but would like to have permission.

Do we know who P. Harden is?

So same holds true still; if you want to post his info with credit given, you are free to.
 
Thanks for the find yorlik. :D

Great thread, although your electronic talk made my head hurt.
Someone's got to know it, it sure isn't me. :?
 
mad in nc said:
Frank - Yorlik pulled his data from the DJI SDK interface - the same point Flytrex and Ken use..... It's the only open port to get the info. Same source..... You should be asking why they (Flytrap and Ken) don't see the same results - not what Yorlik is reporting!

Maybe this is the "spike" anomaly in the Flytrex battery voltage line that they are trying to flatten out. If Yorlik is correct - you don't want to flatten the spike out as you would mask the anomaly he raises that he is asking for DJI response on......

mad in nc, how do you access the data you 1st mentioned above? I have been involved in so much other stuff I missed out on how to do that.
 
danillll said:
This makes more sense, as a developer, this looks like SDK bug where they are using a signed int (short int and int: -32,767 to 32,767) that is overflowing.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Flytrex fixed the spiking voltage bug and it looks good. If they just hacked the parsing logic to make it
look right I would expect to see a smoother voltage decline from t0 to t1, but it appears they reversed the overflow to arrive at the new voltage numbers.
 
gordhunt said:
I always use a wrench never had an issue


Never used a wrench, never had an issue.
 
danillll said:
This makes more sense, as a developer, this looks like SDK bug where they are using a signed int (short int and int: -32,767 to 32,767) that is overflowing.

Where I began leaning also in one of my last posts, but looking at more logs, I see it is not so. Other examples:

currentCurrent
-947
-2333
-2333
32767
32767
32767
32767
32767
32767
5261
5261
19043
19043
18034
18034
16992
16992
32767
32767
-6031
-6031
2323
2323

another log:
-24942
-25616
-25616
-16948
-16948
17447
17447
-14665
-14665
-18557
-18557
-19042

So it does not look like just a twos compliment issue. maybe that plus noise effecting their data.

It appears that the 32676 happens during 100% throttle and the random flipped currents happen during 40-90% throttle. Not sure what this means...

In any case, the question continues to be "how does this effect the rotation of the motors, if at all?"
 
You have something wrong with your quad if those numbers are pasted from actual data. If not, you have something corrupting the data displayed. Every number in your currentCurrent column should be a negative number. Like -19042.

98% of my currentCurrent column has numbers between -13000 and -17000.

Btw, how are you retrieving logger data from the sdk?
 

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