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Guys check out my post.
Cheap batteries in the UK.
Why buy copies when you can get originals at this price.
Cheap batteries in the UK.
Why buy copies when you can get originals at this price.
So much for the battery myth !! Non DJI batterys
- Thread starter solentlife
- Start date
I wasn't saying there aren't ways to get around chips and lockouts and whatnot. What I was saying is that their reaction isn't going to be lowering prices, its going to be an attempt to lock out the competition.
And I didn't dispute any facts that other batteries could be just as good (or even better), nor the fact the price for DJI batteries is not excessive given other prices.
And if you think DJI has the top crown on inflated battery prices, price batteries for DSLRs recently? Holy scrap, DJI is an angel compared to that market. For example a EN-EL18b for Nikon costs $150 from B&H. For a 2700maH (27wH) battery! Jesus. And if you thought that was bad... the charger is $300-400 from Nikon but only about $100 3rd party.
What I am saying is this gouging isn't just in the drone market. Its all over. One of the reasons is that the consumables are the money makers, not the devices they fit. And I can personally confirm that as I work at a computer company. We used to do retail but are mainly in POS, IT and web development now. We basically came close to breaking even on computer sales. But I can tell you that quality $50 monitor cable or printer cable (when they had them) cost us only about $3-4 to source but because of price agreements we weren't allowed to price them below MFSR prices. We could give them away or charge $50. There was no middle ground to the agreement. And yes, I am talking brand names like Belken. If you ever wondered why, in the past, printer cables and monitor cables were all priced about the same, well, its because the manufacturer required agreements to purchase them in quantity and those agreements limited minimum pricing.
I don't like the DJI prices any more than you do. But it is what it is. And until the climate changes, we are stuck.
And I didn't dispute any facts that other batteries could be just as good (or even better), nor the fact the price for DJI batteries is not excessive given other prices.
And if you think DJI has the top crown on inflated battery prices, price batteries for DSLRs recently? Holy scrap, DJI is an angel compared to that market. For example a EN-EL18b for Nikon costs $150 from B&H. For a 2700maH (27wH) battery! Jesus. And if you thought that was bad... the charger is $300-400 from Nikon but only about $100 3rd party.
What I am saying is this gouging isn't just in the drone market. Its all over. One of the reasons is that the consumables are the money makers, not the devices they fit. And I can personally confirm that as I work at a computer company. We used to do retail but are mainly in POS, IT and web development now. We basically came close to breaking even on computer sales. But I can tell you that quality $50 monitor cable or printer cable (when they had them) cost us only about $3-4 to source but because of price agreements we weren't allowed to price them below MFSR prices. We could give them away or charge $50. There was no middle ground to the agreement. And yes, I am talking brand names like Belken. If you ever wondered why, in the past, printer cables and monitor cables were all priced about the same, well, its because the manufacturer required agreements to purchase them in quantity and those agreements limited minimum pricing.
I don't like the DJI prices any more than you do. But it is what it is. And until the climate changes, we are stuck.
Well, if I were in the UK, perhaps useful. Shipping off your island is expensive.
However, I am good on P3 batteries. I got 8 originals at $50(us) each from the fairly recent price match extravaganza. So that gives me 13 total. Was flying with 5 so that puts 8 NIB on my storage shelf to rotate out as needed as the 5 I am flying with age.
I can't comment on whether or not OEM is better than aftermarket due to lack of experience with non DJI batteries.
I can tell you that I recently sent pictures and information of a few batteries to dji (and posted on DJI forum) that I purchased second hand. I wanted to determine which batteries where in fact OEM and which where not. During this process I was told one of the batteries was not from DJI, but also told that the GO app would trigger error message and prevent flight with this aftermarket battery.
I can tell you this, my motors will start with the battery that is 'not approved' by dji. I haven't flown with it, and won't at least until my warranty is up. I just wanted to clarify though, some (or at least the one I have) non dji batteries will work with dji app without errors.
The post on dji forum I am referring to can be found by searching 'genuine battery check' on their forum.
I can tell you that I recently sent pictures and information of a few batteries to dji (and posted on DJI forum) that I purchased second hand. I wanted to determine which batteries where in fact OEM and which where not. During this process I was told one of the batteries was not from DJI, but also told that the GO app would trigger error message and prevent flight with this aftermarket battery.
I can tell you this, my motors will start with the battery that is 'not approved' by dji. I haven't flown with it, and won't at least until my warranty is up. I just wanted to clarify though, some (or at least the one I have) non dji batteries will work with dji app without errors.
The post on dji forum I am referring to can be found by searching 'genuine battery check' on their forum.
Wait what? So dji can shut down all knock off batteries whenever they want? And they already did this once before?!
That means anyone with those knock offs could have a pile of useless batteries at ANY TIME with no notice! That doesnt sound to me like a smart risk.
I've got to thinking about how different the USA and Asia operates on behalf of pirating software. In Asia it allowed... completely...DJI is just protecting themselves from what they are known of in grate strides. Or they would have the market flooded with knock offs at every level....hell we would even be able to fix our own equipment (that we own) and replace it with better, lighter and far superior electronics that would be competing for our business...why?! It's called modding (improving)...and development that does not require a complete upgrade (p3a/p3s/P3pro....P4)....I get it....do you?
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For my experience I used one none official battery before and found it to be very reliable and I also made a video of it
However because official DJI batteries are now £70 in the UK brand new I no longer buy 3rd party ones. Reason? Just so if my bird does fall out of the sky DJI can't blame it on a 3rd party product. Look how many posts there have been about birds falling out of the sky.... 99.9% of them had official DJI batteries so to me DJI official batteries doesn't make it safer. And with all this talk about DJI locking out 3rd party batteries using firmware is no longer an issue now. I am a moderator on a certain underground Facebook group that worked with copter source and we basically took the DJI SDK code and made our own. So now all restrictions set by DJI has been lifted. Now I haven't checked in on that group for a few months as I have no reason to mod my own personal bird but what I have seen them done back then was truly amazing. And I can only imagine how far they must have come now. If DJI won't lower the price of the batteries then its up to us to support the 3rd party batteries.
However because official DJI batteries are now £70 in the UK brand new I no longer buy 3rd party ones. Reason? Just so if my bird does fall out of the sky DJI can't blame it on a 3rd party product. Look how many posts there have been about birds falling out of the sky.... 99.9% of them had official DJI batteries so to me DJI official batteries doesn't make it safer. And with all this talk about DJI locking out 3rd party batteries using firmware is no longer an issue now. I am a moderator on a certain underground Facebook group that worked with copter source and we basically took the DJI SDK code and made our own. So now all restrictions set by DJI has been lifted. Now I haven't checked in on that group for a few months as I have no reason to mod my own personal bird but what I have seen them done back then was truly amazing. And I can only imagine how far they must have come now. If DJI won't lower the price of the batteries then its up to us to support the 3rd party batteries.
Wrong ... Asia does not officially allow Pirating. Even China actually has laws against it. Its the level and extent of them that is the question.
We deal with Chinese and Asian company's every day
Nigel
I have no problem with that concept ....
Trouble is the likes of BMW ... MERCEDES ... DJI .... etc. think Name is everything and add to the price for that label.
DJI do not even make the batterys !! They are made by a sub-contractor. The LiPo's are actually just High Voltage LiPo cells ... its only the SW installed to the board that is DJI. Board and cells are Chinese 3rd party items.
Nigel
Agreed. But they are made to the specification that the OEM wants. Third party stuff may - or may not - meet that spec.
LiPo's are LiPo's ..... the specs come down to basically 4.2V and 4.35V per cell configs .... DJI chose the 4.35V HV type.
Nigel
Nigel
Cars are cars. They all are the same because they have 4 wheels and have to fit the same roads. The specs come down to them fitting the road.
Same argument, different subject. Does it make sense? No. Neither does yours.
Specs have squat to do with reliability.
Sorry, just because LiPo A and LiPo B put out the same voltage, does not mean they were manufactured using the same quality of components, nor manufactured with the same methods, nor with the same QC checks. Nor does it mean that after 100 charge-discharge cycles they will both still be the same. Maybe, but no guarantee.
Not saying OEM is the best. Frequently its not. Sometimes non-OEM has to be better to compete. Unfortunately most of the time non-OEM simply has to be cheaper to compete and unfortunately, most of the time you get what you pay for.
I use non-OEM batteries in my Nikon cameras. If they fail, so what. Worst that can happen is I don't get a shot. Its not like the camera is gonna fall out of the sky. I do NOT fly with non-OEM batteries in my quads. If it fails I drop 4 grand out of the sky and possibly damage something far more expensive depending on where it was at the time. Its simply not worth the risk just to save $50 on a battery and have DJI say warranty void because I used a non-OEM battery. But, thats my choice.
If you are flying with non-OEM and doing fine with them, hey, good for you. More power on ya for saving a few bob (or quid or whatever you Brits call a bit of money). We all have to make our own choices and I am not gonna dump on you for making yours which conflicts with mine. Its your bird, fly it in your own way.
Yes, on two occasions that I can remember in the P3 line at least. I don't know about any other series as i haven't had my I1 very long and don't own any other series from DJI.
This is part of the risk of upgrading your firmware. DJI didn't say the battery check was in the firmware. Why would they do that? People found out the hard way when suddenly their birds quit accepting the knock off battery. Just like people suddenly couldn't fly in places they used to because of new geofencing that they pushed into the firmware. Or suddenly restricted range and altitude if you don't sign in using GO. Surprise!
DJI is not going to tell you about these hidden "features", they just put them in and put some other things in the release notes that make you want to grab the latest firmware. And from what I understand once you go down that path so far, its become a forced update now. They can now keep pushing you along to newer firmware. Not sure how true that last statement is because...
I don't drink the kool-aid. My birds are on 1.5.0011 (which is a dev release prior to 1.5.030 which introduced one of the battery bugs). Doesn't have the geofencing problems. Doesn't have the mandatory updates. Doesn't have the reduced power issue. Doesn't have the cold weather flying bug. Doesn't have the battery checks (even though I don't use non-OEM batteries). And doesn't have any problems that would remotely make me want to update it.
Your bird is yours. Do with it what you will. Its your choice to make. I am just putting it out there so you can make an informed decision.
The analogy of Cars are Cars to that of LiPo's is not sound in fact.
There are actually not as many factories for LiPo's as you think. And like cars engines - they get different labels and badges.....
How many different Brand cars do you think got the Audi 5 engine ... diesel and Gasoline ? How many Brand cars got the PRV (Peugeot Renault Volvo) 4 and 6 cylinder engines ? We can go on all night on this if you like ...
Nigel
Aye, you're fine Wolfie, we use both, as both originated here in Blighty...
Here is my 2 cents (and it's free), I have spent a considerable amount of time in Asia and I am pretty familiar with their business practices and even their production line processes. The advantage to being a "brand name" is that you can set MAP agreements with re-sellers that limit the bottom price that they can sell the item for. If they sell the item below MAP, they risk losing their ability to re-sell the product. What this basically amounts to is price fixing and you will see arguments going both ways but no matter which side you are on, it is ultimately the consumer that suffers from MAP. It is not unheard of for manufacturers to deny warranty claims to the consumer because the re-seller violated a MAP agreement. Whether it's the higher prices or no after sales service it seems the consumer will pay either way.
Now for the production line. Most manufacturers will start production with a specific number of items to make based on "tool-up" costs. Let's say company A wants 25,000 units but the manufacturer figures that they can make 30,000 units for the same price. Keep in mind tooling up and preparing for a production is one of the biggest costs, not necessarily the per item cost of production. Now the factory has a surplus of 5,000 units. They can offer them to company B at the same price per unit or possibly even a lower price per unit since company A paid the preparation costs. Since company B does not have a MAP agreement in place and/or it is not OEM, the consumer pays considerably less for the end product. The biggest caveat is that even though they are the same exact item, company B's product is not considered OEM.
Very oversimplified explanation and many other scenarios are possible but this is one example of how aftermarket items come into existence. Some of the other possibilities and that the item didn't pass QC for original ordering client or the item was made sub-par in a cheap facility with non existent QC.
TLDR; It is possible that an aftermarket battery could be as good as the official DJI battery and it is also possible that it is a piece of junk. As an average consumer, you have no way of knowing but the price you pay for any item that is subject to MAP is not going to get lower.
Now for the production line. Most manufacturers will start production with a specific number of items to make based on "tool-up" costs. Let's say company A wants 25,000 units but the manufacturer figures that they can make 30,000 units for the same price. Keep in mind tooling up and preparing for a production is one of the biggest costs, not necessarily the per item cost of production. Now the factory has a surplus of 5,000 units. They can offer them to company B at the same price per unit or possibly even a lower price per unit since company A paid the preparation costs. Since company B does not have a MAP agreement in place and/or it is not OEM, the consumer pays considerably less for the end product. The biggest caveat is that even though they are the same exact item, company B's product is not considered OEM.
Very oversimplified explanation and many other scenarios are possible but this is one example of how aftermarket items come into existence. Some of the other possibilities and that the item didn't pass QC for original ordering client or the item was made sub-par in a cheap facility with non existent QC.
TLDR; It is possible that an aftermarket battery could be as good as the official DJI battery and it is also possible that it is a piece of junk. As an average consumer, you have no way of knowing but the price you pay for any item that is subject to MAP is not going to get lower.
Close friend of mine was R&D Manager for a famous Mobile Phone Co.
We had long discussions about events that had been over a period and the effects / reason his company took such action ....
A few years back - this Mobile Phone Brand leader offered to swap Non original batterys for their own Branded batterys free of charge. All you had to do was to send in the ID / Serial number of your phone and the battery.
By return - you would receive the brands standard official battery.
It cost them huge amount to do it ... but it worked.
Why ? They were having trouble convincing public that their own batterys were best. So they decided to spend money on a campaign to convince public. The response was a gamble and as predicted - many people did not take up the offer reducing the overall cost ... BUT the publicity worked ... sales of replacement batterys went up.
Company recouped the costs over their brand range.
BUT the kicker was that most of the non original batterys came of the same production line as their own ! And as he told me - there was actually nothing wrong with them - but they hit seriously their revenue line.
OK - onto another aspect we discussed .. cloning of the phones themselves ...
His dept did a lot of testing of clone / copy phones and found that most were near identical in parts and construction. But they all missed the one 'ingredient' necessary to 100% clone their product ..... the FW and SW installed.
What they were doing as was most of the other mobile phone companys, they withheld the FW / SW from the factory and installed that at own bases away from factory production lines. Later many of that changed as it became difficult to maintain.
But it meant that the clone could not access the online updates / app stores etc.
I have spent extensive time in China and Asia generally. It may surprise many that the most popular phone for a long time was the true Nokia ... it was a status symbol to them of success ... but of course out of reach for the common Chinese person in price ...
Nigel
We had long discussions about events that had been over a period and the effects / reason his company took such action ....
A few years back - this Mobile Phone Brand leader offered to swap Non original batterys for their own Branded batterys free of charge. All you had to do was to send in the ID / Serial number of your phone and the battery.
By return - you would receive the brands standard official battery.
It cost them huge amount to do it ... but it worked.
Why ? They were having trouble convincing public that their own batterys were best. So they decided to spend money on a campaign to convince public. The response was a gamble and as predicted - many people did not take up the offer reducing the overall cost ... BUT the publicity worked ... sales of replacement batterys went up.
Company recouped the costs over their brand range.
BUT the kicker was that most of the non original batterys came of the same production line as their own ! And as he told me - there was actually nothing wrong with them - but they hit seriously their revenue line.
OK - onto another aspect we discussed .. cloning of the phones themselves ...
His dept did a lot of testing of clone / copy phones and found that most were near identical in parts and construction. But they all missed the one 'ingredient' necessary to 100% clone their product ..... the FW and SW installed.
What they were doing as was most of the other mobile phone companys, they withheld the FW / SW from the factory and installed that at own bases away from factory production lines. Later many of that changed as it became difficult to maintain.
But it meant that the clone could not access the online updates / app stores etc.
I have spent extensive time in China and Asia generally. It may surprise many that the most popular phone for a long time was the true Nokia ... it was a status symbol to them of success ... but of course out of reach for the common Chinese person in price ...
Nigel
yeah thats the problem with "smart" stuff. the smarter the device is, the better they can control its ecosystem if they so choose.
personally i will stick with oem batteries mainly for the reason they will meet minimum standards set by dji. im not saying some aftermarket ones dont, some may be even better just like many vehicle aftermarket performance parts are. but its hit or miss and i would rather not take the chance. to me its just a maintenance cost. part of the hobby. BTW i used to make my own battery packs for RC electric car racing.. battery matching, known brands and suppliers etc. but those were dumb packs, not like these. of course the rc cars just coast to a stop when a battery failed rather than fall from the sky
as for the battery check im sure there are ways around it if needed, its only software. sooner or later someone would find a way around it, kinda like rooting phones. then it would be a cat and mouse game.. updates vs hack. and im not sure how many people would be comfortable modifying the AC operating system.
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