So I got ticketed by Federal Police Officers...(video included)

[GMack]

....is it legal to take off/operate/land outside of the zone and fly within??

In theory yes, but the problem doing so is the visual line of sight part of the FAA. How far can you see your drone without resorting to illegal FPV goggles? Maybe one-half mile? That would be your distance limit into the Nat. Park itself. Fly further and you're busted by the FAA rules.

Also, some areas around the Park boundaries may be wildlife areas with their own NFZ rules, or some creative cop will come up with some sort of gray law to curtail your flying somehow.

 

[Racklefratz]

The way I read the policy is "Launching, Landing or operating from lands or waters...". So in theory you could operate from outside park boundaries and fly into as long as you don't land.

It doesn't say that.

Quote:
"Closure Language:
Launching, landing, or operating an unmanned aircraft from or on lands and waters administered by the National Park Service within the boundaries of [insert name of park] is prohibited except as approved in writing by the superintendent."

Contained in the quote is language that states "launching, landing, or operating unmanned aircraft within the boundaries of [name of park] is prohibited..."

"within the boundaries" is self-explanatory. It means anywhere inside the park - doesn't matter whether it got inside from some point outside or not, it's just not supposed to in there at all - from anywhere. It's that simple.

 

[dwallersv]

Good info here.....so not that I would do it cause it would probably still put you in confrontation with the local authorities....is it legal to take off/operate/land outside of the zone and fly within??

Perhaps (this is a constantly discussed "loophole" in the regs), but if so, it certainly isn't that what intentionally to facilitate the sort of end-run around the "spirit" of the law is all about in these cases.

So let's try and mesh smoothly with the rest of our fellow citizens, rather than look for ways to exploit loopholes in the law and piss everyone off.

Laws against stealing are there because its wrong to take someone else's property. An oversight that makes it technically legal under some obscure circumstance won't make a whit of difference to anyone if you then "legally" steal something... Everyone will still be just as pissed, and you'll be a thief in their eyes.

Same principle here.

 

[dwallersv]

Contained in the quote is language that states "launching, landing, or operating unmanned aircraft within the boundaries of [name of park] is prohibited..."

The person trying to find some way to break the spirit of these rules would say that the craft is not being operated within the park if the operator is outside the park. And if we're going to scrutinize dictionary word meanings as a way to define what a law means, there is an argument to made here.

However, that is not the proper way to interpret law. "Original intent" is what judges try to determine, it is the purpose of keeping a legislative debate record -- so that legitimate dispute over word meaning doesn't become the focus of the judicial process.

 

[potluckman]

The way I read the policy is "Launching, Landing or operating from lands or waters...". So in theory you could operate from outside park boundaries and fly into as long as you don't land.

www.nps.gov/policy/PolMemos/PM_14-05.htm



Sent from my iPhone using PhantomPilots

Hate to sound negative but frankly looking at the traffic and congested area in your video, common sense would have dictated that I not fly here. There are cars and people all around you that you are endangering by here. What if your drone and drifted over to interstate and went through a windshield and caused a fatal crash. It is far more
important to use your brain than to use Airmaps. I am a newbie too but I spent time reading the laws and browsing this forum even before I purchased my P4. When you are around other people, these drones are NOT just a toy.

 

[Racklefratz]

The best way to hasten that change is to behave as if you don't get "the point" here, and play games like are being discussed -- launch outside the park, buzz the Arch to your heart's content, land outside the park....

Be aware of the reasons behind restrictions, not just the restriction. Armed with that, seek permission to do what you want to do -- that's how we all "play together". Almost always you'll be able to get that permission, with some constraints, which is how we all accommodate each other.

And sometimes the answer simply is "no", in which case you move on. No one gets everything they want.

Quite right.

Unfortunately, mostly owing to parenting which fails to teach some children at a young age the difference between right from wrong and proper respect for authority, there is a growing segment of society that believes they have a right to challenge everything that stands between them and self-gratification. They refuse to accept the reality that there are restraints on their behavior, from whatever the source - standards of decency, governmental regulations, laws, etc. Their anti-social tendencies spoil it for the rest of us.

 

[CFI-I]

Hey Guys,

So it happened...I got ticketed by Federal Police Officers two weeks ago. I was traveling to St. Louis, MO and wanted to get some good fly time in so I went to get some video of the Archway...which apparently is actually considered a National Park.

At the time, it was under construction and I did not even see signs designating it as a National Park. Also, being newer to the drone life (and trying to follow all proper laws and guidelines) I had never read anything about National Parks being No Fly Zones. I have since learned to use apps like AirMap to hopefully avoid any of this in the future.

The FAA does not appear to have a law against flying in National Parks, it seems to be something the National Park enacted themselves from what I have researched. I'm not sure how it seems legit that the FAA "owns the air" but other agencies can override the FAA.

Anyway, below is a video I ended up making. It was supposed to be entirely different but figured I might as well use it as an opportunity to make a video anyway..and possibly help someone not make the same mistake. You can go right to the audio of the police interaction if you click the link down in the description.

Rosey... Thanks for helping everyone with such a good reminder. You should be thrilled that your were only fined $50. You should also appreciate that the Federal Park Ranger was such a polite and very reasonable Ranger as are most of them and much of that was also likely due to your modest and contrite attitude in response to him. They are just concerned w/ the safety of other park visitors. Thanks also for trying to be a good pilot and a good representative of the Drone Pilot community.
I also do aerials from Helicopters and airplanes (terryketron.com) and that might be the best way to shoot Nat'l Parks although they prefer that occupied aircraft stay at least 2,000' AGL but that's what telephoto lenses are for.
Thanks again for the post and happy landings in the future.
Terry

 

[dixter]

Just in case this isn't evident... If you see a sign that prohibits RC ( Radio Controlled ) craft then our Drones fall into that category too...

 

[potluckman]

Perhaps (this is a constantly discussed "loophole" in the regs), but if so, it certainly isn't that what intentionally to facilitate the sort of end-run around the "spirit" of the law is all about in these cases.

So let's try and mesh smoothly with the rest of our fellow citizens, rather than look for ways to exploit loopholes in the law and piss everyone off.

Laws against stealing are there because its wrong to take someone else's property. An oversight that makes it technically legal under some obscure circumstance won't make a whit of difference to anyone if you then "legally" steal something... Everyone will still be just as pissed, and you'll be a thief in their eyes.

Same principle here.

Very well stated. As I just posted, use your brain and common sense first and airmaps second. NO one should be flying low over a public crowd or near a busy interstate highway. May be legal some places but not very smart.

 

[davoud]

Hey Guys,
...the Archway...which apparently is actually considered a National Park...

I love this stuff! The Jefferson National Expansion Memorial is just that: a memorial administered by the National Park Service. The NPS has fairly wide latitude in deciding what is permissible in the properties they manage for us. Is it surprising that they take a conservative view toward public safety, preservation, and the public's right to enjoy the parks and memorials? In any case, it is the FAA, not the NPS, that has imposed a Temporary Flight Restriction at the Jefferson National Expansion Memorial. "...In other cases, section 99.7 TFRs have been issued in response to threat assessments affecting certain major sporting events, such as the World Series™ ; and over significant national landmarks, such as the St. Louis Arch, the Statue of Liberty, and Mount Rushmore..." https://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/notams_tfr/media/tfrweb.pdf

Inform yourself before you fly and we all benefit.

 

[DanMan32]

Judges don't always go by original intent.

 

[dwallersv]

Judges don't always go by original intent.

Agreed, and they're corrupt judges in my opinion and should be removed.

Where original intent can be discerned, it must be followed. Otherwise, we do not have "rule of law". How can the citizenry possibly obey the law if they can't know what it is until they get in the judge's courtroom?

 

[Racklefratz]

WTF are you talking about?! This has nothing to do with any immature "demand" to have what one wants... No one has made the argument that we demand to always have what we want in any way on this thread..Nuff said.

I saw nothing in the quoted post that was directed at you. There are plenty of other posts in this discussion and elsewhere by anti-authority types who refuse to accept that there are, and always will be, limitations on things they think they have a right to do. These are people who go through life thumbing their noses at laws, regulations, and societal customs the rest of us accept and comply with.

THAT'S what the post was about. I totally agree with it.

 

[davoud]

The Officer did not really know what he was talking about. The prohibition on flying from National Parks is not an FAA rule, so the FAA would not be putting up any kind fence...

You are misinformed. This is an FAA restricted zone. The NPS does not control airspace.

 

[Racklefratz]

Good info here.....so not that I would do it cause it would probably still put you in confrontation with the local authorities....is it legal to take off/operate/land outside of the zone and fly within??

No, it's not, despite the posts here which incorrectly state otherwise. Read the NPS document linked to earlier in this discussion. The rules are pretty clear -

"Closure Language:
Launching, landing, or operating an unmanned aircraft from or on lands and waters administered by the National Park Service within the boundaries of [insert name of park] is prohibited except as approved in writing by the superintendent."

Operative language is "from OR ON". Nothing there saying it's OK if you fly the drone into the park from somewhere outside the park - it's just not allowed in there - PERIOD.

 

[Stuartk]

Hey Guys,

So it happened...I got ticketed by Federal Police Officers two weeks ago. I was traveling to St. Louis, MO and wanted to get some good fly time in so I went to get some video of the Archway...which apparently is actually considered a National Park.

At the time, it was under construction and I did not even see signs designating it as a National Park. Also, being newer to the drone life (and trying to follow all proper laws and guidelines) I had never read anything about National Parks being No Fly Zones. I have since learned to use apps like AirMap to hopefully avoid any of this in the future.

The FAA does not appear to have a law against flying in National Parks, it seems to be something the National Park enacted themselves from what I have researched. I'm not sure how it seems legit that the FAA "owns the air" but other agencies can override the FAA.

Anyway, below is a video I ended up making. It was supposed to be entirely different but figured I might as well use it as an opportunity to make a video anyway..and possibly help someone not make the same mistake. You can go right to the audio of the police interaction if you click the link down in the description.

I tried flying there about a year ago with my P4 and the app stated it was in a no fly zone. P4 would not start-wonder how you got yours to start?

 

[AlecW]

This pic reminds me of when I used used to live at Gentry's.
Good'ole dowtown STL, I do not miss you.

My wife's family all live in St. Lewis. I can't tell you how many times I've endured "the Arch day trip" or the Budweiser tour (at least I get a beer on that one).

 

[New York Giants]

Thanks for sharing this with us very educational for me i have since downloaded AirMap. So if the advisories are in yellow on Airmap does that mean im suppose to contact the listed contacts before flying that area?

 

[Jason Alberta]

If they're going to enforce this I believe they need to list "no drone" signs everywhere and in the entry points. It might be a lot of work for the park to tear down the signs and redo them all, but they need to add drone laws visibly obvious for the times we live in.

So much "no". Pilots need to research where they want to fly. If you just find out what kind of land it is and who administers it, and then google that classification with the word "drone", you'll probably have your answer. If not, make a call, or better yet email someone so you have a record. Saying the government needs to put signage everywhere you can't fly a drone is the sort of talk that will just the hobby banned.

 

[Walnawk]

It is very unfortunate that you got ticketed, and how often can we get to see park rangers? I got a feeling that quite a few drones has flew through the Arch.

I have two law degrees, and have been keeping up with a lot of emerging drone regulations. To put a conclusion to your experience, FAA is only one of the authorities that pilots can in trouble with. As far as legal complaints goes, pilots can be in trouble through other legalities such as trespass (reasonable distance from ground up), nuisance (noise complaints etc.) which local police has the authority enforce. So we might need to watch out for more than just the FAA.

It is a good policy to have no drone flying in national park because there are many people visiting a park at any given time, and that a drone accident and damages it can cause can easily be foreseeable. That's why a lot of good pilots often suggest flying over water/lakes for sake of safety as well as avoidance of signal interference. Hope this helps.