RAW is processed, JPG is not

[inkytog]

i updated my firmware last night on the p4p. Shot jpg and raw today using AEB hoping for some good HDRs. I am seeing the same issue gr8pics is seeing before i read this large post. i removed all my photos from my LR catalog thinking it was using a default preset for the import and it wasnt. my DNG files come in saturated while my jpgs come in flat (dcinelike, -2,-3,-2). i checked the file size and its 35.8 for DNG and 6.8 for the jpg. Im very confused and fully understand what gr8pics is frustrated about. about a week ago i had the files on my SD card say they were shot the day before and wrote it off to metadata issues. I also had a situation while shooting today where i couldnt change my f-stop while in still camera mode then switched to video, back to camera and I could.

gr8pics: what are you doing in LR to overcome this? have you tried a full reset yet?

also, re-reading the posts...its so obvious what he is talking about. I was getting so frustrated with the posts throwing gr8pics under the bus as if his eyes didnt work. I have been using LR and PS for 5-6 years and its so clear what he is discussing/concerned about and I am nothing close to a pro photographer. THE DNG FILES LOOK LIKE THEY HAVE HAD A HDR PRESET APPLIED (or just very contrasty/punchy) AND THE JPGS LOOK LIKE WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT A DNG TO LOOK LIKE...end of discussion. his first post with the photos proved that. if dcinelike is to blame has anyone else used another one that works better?

I uploaded a screen grab using my jpg as the reference photo (LR lingo) and the dng on the right. both 1/50, f4.0, iso 100. no presets applied on import or edits done in LR. after the screen grab i pulled my contrast slider to -100 and it still had more punch than the flat jpg did...not much but noticeable. i shoot my canon 6d in RAW and neutral and LR brings them in that way. I also downloaded 'fastrawviewer' and got the same result as LR but what is strange in both programs is i briefly see the flat 'preview' (at the bottom of the program) but when it shows the full size image it saturates it (in LR it will show the preview flat, then it switches to the saturated version)View attachment 73412

Please.
No.
Not.
This.
Again.

 

[Tomas Wangen]

I am seeing the same issue gr8pics is seeing before i read this large post. i removed all my photos from my LR catalog thinking it was using a default preset for the import and it wasnt. my DNG files come in saturated while my jpgs come in flat (dcinelike, -2,-3,-2). i checked the file size and its 35.8 for DNG and 6.8 for the jpg. Im very confused and fully understand what gr8pics is frustrated about.

Please read this that I have posted before. It explains it very well (and is only 4 pages of text).

https://www.adobe.com/digitalimag/pdfs/understanding_digitalrawcapture.pdf

 

[inkytog]

I dont quite know how this is still continuing. For the purposes of my sanity, I've taken a pretty ordinary shot from my collection and willing to share it here to see what results you get. Now this shot is taken with a Canon 1DX Mkii. Brand new, top of the line Canon. There is a comparison to show you the RAW file out of camera and the image after I've made some adjustments.

If you want the RAW file to see for yourself how it looks on your screen I'm willing to share it but I would ask that you please delete it once done. It's not a massively spectacular shot but I'm happy for you all to have a look.

If you open the RAW and look at it. Would you say it was 'contrasty'. I would say it looks as if the same processing has been applied to it as any shots I've seen in this thread from the p4p. Now this is a £5000 camera with a £2000 lens and I am 100% confident that I'm looking at the right RAW image.

The file is here:

https://we.tl/5gwiWvEPS4

If you don't want to look at the file - here's a grab I made of the 'compare' window in Lightroom. Can you see which is the RAW and which is my adjusted RAW?

Can you see which is the RAW?

 

[inkytog]

ALSO..
I dont know if this is having something to do with it but it seems that Adobe Camera RAW is using an 'embedded' profile for the P4P DNG files - whereas my CR2 Canon files are using
the Adobe Profile. Either way It's NOT making a difference to the latitude I have in post processing. It's just what's being set as a 'baseline' for the edit.

I am guessing once Adobe update their RAW decoders with some specific lens profiles for the P4P then we will not be having this discussion.

 

[inkytog]

ALSO:
Have you looked at the Zip file that is on the DJI website for the Phantom 4 in the download section. They provide a Cr2 file, p4p and a couple of others and the results are the same.

 

[Dronefriend]

If you shoot pictures in cinelike and -2 -2, of course the jpg is going to look more flat. The raw is in 0 0 0 and None no matter what you do.

You must understand that something looking 'flat' does not make it better.

 

[inkytog]

If you shoot pictures in cinelike and -2 -2, of course the jpg is going to look more flat. The raw is in 0 0 0 and None no matter what you do.

You must understand that something looking 'flat' does not make it better.

No no no.. this is not what we are discussing.

We are discussing the fact that some people seem to think the RAW file is processed and they refuse to accept that there is just a base level of presets attached to it that can be adjusted. Read the post if you can be bothered.

 

[carr1976]

ALSO..
I dont know if this is having something to do with it but it seems that Adobe Camera RAW is using an 'embedded' profile for the P4P DNG files - whereas my CR2 Canon files are using
the Adobe Profile. Either way It's NOT making a difference to the latitude I have in post processing. It's just what's being set as a 'baseline' for the edit.

I am guessing once Adobe update their RAW decoders with some specific lens profiles for the P4P then we will not be having this discussion.


View attachment 73440View attachment 73441

This I can agree with. Thank you.

 

[F3honda4me]

No no no.. this is not what we are discussing.

We are discussing the fact that some people seem to think the RAW file is processed and they refuse to accept that there is just a base level of presets attached to it that can be adjusted. Read the post if you can be bothered.

He was not responding to you just FYI.

 

[wely324]

So is their a solution for the DNG files in Lightroom with an embedded color profile???

 

[inkytog]

So is their a solution for the DNG files in Lightroom with an embedded color profile???

Doesn't matter. It's just a starting point.
Don't worry about the profile. Just edit the photo how you like.

 

[wely324]

Thanks, just curious as the files seem to be a bit noisy when you start pulling and pushing them a bit. Wasn't sure if there was a solution to it.

Doesn't matter. It's just a starting point.
Don't worry about the profile. Just edit the photo how you like.

 

[inkytog]

Just a thought.

When I looked at my canon raw file so could also select some presets in Adobe Camera Raw. Those match the 'picture styles' that canon use. They're the usual 'landscape', vivid and so on. I shoot with none but the raw converter slaps on 'None'. If I'd have shot with landscape it would have loaded that preset. Of course the Raw file won't chance but the profile and overlay will.

So with all this being said. Is it possible that for the chap who messaged that his Nikon was not showing anything as close to the JPEG. Perhaps he was running a colour style on the DSLR which was carried through and slapped on after?

Still wont change the raw file but just a thought

 

[LuisBravoPereira]

By default Adobe ACR is opening DJI DNG files applying a built-in lens profile. If you open the DJI DNG files with, f.ex., Rawtherapee you will see very strong vignetting and geometric distortion (fisheye effect), so less processed RAW data. I agree with Gr8pics observation, because his JPEG files shown here looked very flat in contrast (looked just like they were using some type of Dlog curve, available by the way, as you possible already know, on video settings of DJI Go 4 App, but I am not sure if it will affect still photography settings too!). Possible they (DJI or Adobe) are applying some type of contrast curve on DNG, so I suggest to try opening the tested DNG files with other "non Adobe" image RAW developer. If it is a firmware over pre-processing problem, only DJI will be able to correct the problem on a future firmware update!

 

[Doctorcobani]

People. I'm a photographer, I know a lot of this things like a few here. Please, to these people without knowledge about this topic, READ SLOWLY AND LEARN.

I think that the OP has taken a photo with D-LOG or D-CINELIKE as color profile (and with -2-2-2 or something as picture profile).

The RAW shows the real sensor data. These DNG have embedded a camera profile with a minor adjustments that Lightroom always load by default (vignetting and lens correction).

The drone operator has configured D-LOG or D-CINELIKE and -2-2-2. So, the JPG processed by the drone it's the same DNG but with a D-LOG curve applied, and with less contrast, sharpness and saturation, and a bunch of other things like compression, color, etc.

That's why the OP see the RAW "less dull" compared with JPG. The RAW its the real data captured WITHOUT ANY CURVE OR COLOR CORRECTION, and JPG was processed with a D-LOG curve and -2-2-2!!!!

I have read here advices like "I'm pro photographer, reload firmware, call DJI, I'm a pro and I'm right".....
WTF???????????????????
Why is so hard to understand!?!?!? [emoji58]
PLEASE READ AND LEARN!!!! Don't talk ********!!!!!

Enviado desde mi Nexus 6P mediante Tapatalk

 

[inkytog]

People. I'm a photographer, I know a lot of this things like a few here. Please, to these people without knowledge about this topic, READ SLOWLY AND LEARN.

I think that the OP has taken a photo with D-LOG or D-CINELIKE as color profile (and with -2-2-2 or something as picture profile).

The RAW shows the real sensor data. These DNG have embedded a camera profile with a minor adjustments that Lightroom always load by default (vignetting and lens correction).

The drone operator has configured D-LOG or D-CINELIKE and -2-2-2. So, the JPG processed by the drone it's the same DNG but with a D-LOG curve applied, and with less contrast, sharpness and saturation, and a bunch of other things like compression, color, etc.

That's why the OP see the RAW "less dull" compared with JPG. The RAW its the real data captured WITHOUT ANY CURVE OR COLOR CORRECTION, and JPG was processed with a D-LOG curve and -2-2-2!!!!

I have read here advices like "I'm pro photographer, reload firmware, call DJI, I'm a pro and I'm right".....
WTF???????????????????
Why is so hard to understand!?!?!? [emoji58]
PLEASE READ AND LEARN!!!! Don't talk ********!!!!!

Enviado desde mi Nexus 6P mediante Tapatalk

Yes. Most of us agree.
This will still continue whilst some are convinced that the raw is not raw.

 

[Tomas Wangen]

I did a controlled test of raw range and also included a jpeg/dlog for reference (relevant for video).

P4P, can we squeeze 14 stops of dynamic range from a raw file?

Bottom line I got 14 stops from raw, about 12.5 stops from jpeg and about 8 stops from raw without adjustments (which is why you must always postprocess raw images)

Notice that the raw file is fully saturated while jpeg is not (due to dlog) for a 100% saturated test-sheet.

(Note, to get beyond stated spec of range, I had to cheat slightly by overexposing as described in the post)

 

[gr8pics]

People. I'm a photographer, I know a lot of this things like a few here. Please, to these people without knowledge about this topic, READ SLOWLY AND LEARN.

I think that the OP has taken a photo with D-LOG or D-CINELIKE as color profile (and with -2-2-2 or something as picture profile).

The RAW shows the real sensor data. These DNG have embedded a camera profile with a minor adjustments that Lightroom always load by default (vignetting and lens correction).

The drone operator has configured D-LOG or D-CINELIKE and -2-2-2. So, the JPG processed by the drone it's the same DNG but with a D-LOG curve applied, and with less contrast, sharpness and saturation, and a bunch of other things like compression, color, etc.

That's why the OP see the RAW "less dull" compared with JPG. The RAW its the real data captured WITHOUT ANY CURVE OR COLOR CORRECTION, and JPG was processed with a D-LOG curve and -2-2-2!!!!

I have read here advices like "I'm pro photographer, reload firmware, call DJI, I'm a pro and I'm right".....
WTF???????????????????
Why is so hard to understand!?!?!? [emoji58]
PLEASE READ AND LEARN!!!! Don't talk ********!!!!!

Enviado desde mi Nexus 6P mediante Tapatalk

I already stated that in post#89.
See also post #91

It is my professional opinion, that both this camera/lens and its software has been rushed by Dji and in many ways doesnt deliver its fully potential, both on video and stills.
I myself already got one unit replaced cause of misaligned lens, the out of focus was so obvious, that my dealer didnt even bother to check with the distributor first, and just replaced it on site.
I think there are enough threads around the forums now, to confirm this, in different forms.

 

[gr8pics]

Yes. Most of us agree.
This will still continue whilst some are convinced that the raw is not raw.

Never said that raw is not raw, see my post #91 as an example.

 

[Macfawlty]

Never said that raw is not raw, see my post #91 as an example.

gr8pics,
Your observations and concerns were spot on from the first post on through. I'm not sure why some folks felt it necessary to get so adversarial.

When I got my Canon 5D mkII 7 years ago, it took me a while to discover that, while I was shooting RAW, my photos were contrasty with blown highlights, crushed shadows, oversaturated, and sharpened in-camera. After a few months of hating my pics, I got schooled on Picture Profiles (names that mean nothing) for sharpness, contrast, saturation and tone. The '0' values are not zero at all. Since then, I use the 'Neutral' (meaningless name) to -4, -4, -4 to get something flatter, still not as flat as a log profile, but good enough to work with.

Seemingly, RAW is an ambiguous term and the sharpness/contrast/ settings are relative to the engineering of the sensor and the processing. Your sample RAW pics do not look anything like any LOG profile I've seen working in professional video. They look contrasty and over-saturated, far from a flat LOG profile. Having to lift the shadows, recover highlights and desaturate in LR to achieve a flatter appearance is the opposite of a LOG workflow. I appreciate your very comprehensive and informative posts in this thread.