Flying at very low altitudes near airports

[nwairphotos]

Is there a certain altitude below which the FAA doesn't need your report?

I found on another board that someone contacted the airport about flying their drone in their area and asked if he needed to contact them every time and the controller said not if below 150' AGL.

Unless off the end of a runway, at 200' or lower there shouldn't be any conflicts with manned aircraft as I see it.

Anyway, is there such leeway and if not, should there be and is it in the works?

 

[sar104]

Is there a certain altitude below which the FAA doesn't need your report?

I found on another board that someone contacted the airport about flying their drone in their area and asked if he needed to contact them every time and the controller said not if below 150' AGL.

Unless off the end of a runway, at 200' or lower there shouldn't be any conflicts with manned aircraft as I see it.

Anyway, is there such leeway and if not, should there be and is it in the works?

The arrangement that you mention above consitutes a specific agreement with the airport, but there is no blanket altitude below which the requirement to notify an airport goes away.

 

[nwairphotos]

It seems this rule needs some tweeking if one has to inform an airport about flying lower than tree tops.

 

[GMack]

The place I took my 107 test out of is a stone's throw to the tower, ~50 yards. It's actually a real pilot training and A&P mechanics facility along with dorms. When I asked about flying drones around there, it was a "No way!" for any drone operation from the tower head to the school staff. Maybe the tower guy thought students and drones would be a bad mix to even go there.

 

[sar104]

The place I took my 107 test out of is a stone's throw to the tower, ~50 yards. It's actually a real pilot training and A&P mechanics facility along with dorms. When I asked about flying drones around there, it was a "No way!" for any drone operation from the tower head to the school staff. Maybe the tower guy thought students and drones would be a bad mix to even go there.

That's all very well, but in the case of recreational flying (except in Class B airspace) their authorization is not required, and in the case of Part 107 it is entirely determined by airspace class, not the opinion of the facility.

 

[maxheadspace]

That's all very well, but in the case of recreational flying (except in Class B airspace) their authorization is not required, and in the case of Part 107 it is entirely determined by airspace class, not the opinion of the facility.

Agree, for Part 107 pilots it's not a matter of whether the tower told you once that you don't have to report below 150'; if you are flying a commercial drone within the five miles you must request authorization (not waiver). As for recreational flying, what one person in the tower said was OK may not be the same result you get if you call the next day and get someone else answering the phone.

 

[sar104]

Agree, for Part 107 pilots it's not a matter of whether the tower told you once that you don't have to report below 150'; if you are flying a commercial drone within the five miles you must request authorization (not waiver). As for recreational flying, what one person in the tower said was OK may not be the same result you get if you call the next day and get someone else answering the phone.

I think you have misunderstood both the Part 107 and recreational requirements.

PART 107: There is no requirement to call an airport operator or tower when operating at any distance from the airport. Flight authorization is only determined by airspace class; if you are in Class G then you are cleared to fly, while any other airspace class (E, D, C, B) requires an authorization or waiver from the FAA (not the airport or tower).

RECREATIONAL: You must notify the airport operator and tower (if there is one) before flying within 5 miles of an airport. This is just a notification, not a request for authorization. The airport or tower can raise objections on safety grounds, but cannot deny permission.

 

[GMack]

Wonder if I tell them, "I'm a recreational pilot and I will do an orbit around their tower a couple of times, and I don't care what they say?"

Anyone got federal bail money available to try it?

 

[tcope]

Wonder if I tell them, "I'm a recreational pilot and I will do an orbit around their tower a couple of times, and I don't care what they say?"

I get the joke. However, people should also know that DJI has built in restriction on this that won't allow the props to start within 1.5 miles (I think that is the correct distance) of the airport.

 

[sar104]

Wonder if I tell them, "I'm a recreational pilot and I will do an orbit around their tower a couple of times, and I don't care what they say?"

Anyone got federal bail money available to try it?

These concerns are addressed clearly on the FAA website. The airport cannot deny permission but they can object on safety grounds. If you ignore their objections and then fly in a place or manner that endangers the NAS, then you may be prosecuted by the FAA.

Can an airport operator object to model aircraft flights near an airport?
Yes, an airport operator can object to the proposed use of a model aircraft within five miles of an airport if the proposed activity would endanger the safety of the airspace. However, the airport operator cannot prohibit or prevent the model aircraft operator from operating within five miles of the airport. Unsafe flying in spite of the objection of an airport operator may be evidence that the operator was endangering the safety of the National Airspace System. Additionally, the UAS operator must comply with any applicable airspace requirements.

 

[GMack]

I get the joke. However, people should also know that DJI has built in restriction on this that won't allow the props to start within 1.5 miles (I think that is the correct distance) of the airport.

True, but not all drones are geo-fenced -- yet. That said, I still wouldn't be willing to fly one, sans a geo-fence, around a tower to try it. Somehow I see it not going well.

sar104 has it I think.

 

[maxheadspace]

I think you have misunderstood both the Part 107 and recreational requirements.

PART 107: There is no requirement to call an airport operator or tower when operating at any distance from the airport. Flight authorization is only determined by airspace class; if you are in Class G then you are cleared to fly, while any other airspace class (E, D, C, B) requires an authorization or waiver from the FCC (not the airport or tower).

RECREATIONAL: You must notify the airport operator and tower (if there is one) before flying within 5 miles of an airport. This is just a notification, not a request for authorization. The airport or tower can raise objections on safety grounds, but cannot deny permission.

Nope. Didn't misunderstand anything. You just restated what I said. I did simplify "airspace class" to what most understand, five miles. Except you're somewhat in error. It's not authorization OR waiver, it is just authorization. And of course we don't request it from the FCC, we request it from the FAA.

 

[sar104]

Nope. Didn't misunderstand anything. You just restated what I said. I did simplify "airspace class" to what most understand, five miles. Except you're somewhat in error. It's not authorization OR waiver, it is just authorization. And of course we don't request it from the FCC, we request it from the FAA.

Yes - thanks - did mean FAA.

On the subject of authorization, it can be an authorization or waiver. Authorization is a one-time deal, while a waiver allows continued operation until the waiver expires.

You are still incorrect regarding the 5 miles. That has nothing to do with commercial (Part 107) operations, and it does not determine the airspace class. Some airports are entirely Class G, some have surface Class E, D, C or B and that airspace class is not simply determined by distance from the airport.

And on the recreational issue, you stated: "As for recreational flying, what one person in the tower said was OK may not be the same result you get if you call the next day and get someone else answering the phone." Since you don't need a result - you are only notifying, not requesting authorization - that concern is not relevant.

 

[BigAl07]

Nope. Didn't misunderstand anything. You just restated what I said. I did simplify "airspace class" to what most understand, five miles. Except you're somewhat in error. It's not authorization OR waiver, it is just authorization. And of course we don't request it from the FCC, we request it from the FAA.

You're mixing terms and giving incorrect information.

The 5 mile reference is ONLY for Part 101 operations. Part 107 is Airspace only.

Also you can get an Airspace Waiver if you need to fly in a specific area for a long period of time (Up to a couple of years I believe).

You might want to get a refresher course in Part 107 and delve into the more recent terminology (aka Airspace Waiver).

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Reading this thread with some interest.

I think to clarify, "recreational" we can assume the operator does not have a 107 License.

I'm a 107 operator (with a license) and there's plenty of class G airports around me. Every time I fly (business, proficiency, or any thing else) I consider myself under 107 and my drones are registered as commercial drones. the FAA guidelines are clear about 107 operations and when to contact class G airport operators.

"Operations in Class B, C, D and E airspace are allowed with
the required ATC permission.

• Operations in Class G airspace are allowed without ATC
permission."

https://www.faa.gov/uas/media/Part_107_Summary.pdf

Just for the hell of it I contacted the operators of several "part time" helipads that are included under the 5 mile rule of FAR 101.41(e) that are close to where I live. They told me that they could care less if they were contacted unless you were within 1/4 of their helipad and above 400', as a matter of fact one of them, an air ambulance operation preferred NOT to be contacted as they felt it would tie up their phone lines.

I'm not saying not to comply with FAR 101.41(e) but this regulation needs some serious overview as some urban areas are blanketed with helipads and it also conflicts with FAR 91.119 for fixed wing operations. Additionally the notification process is vague to say the least.

 

[BigAl07]

Is there a certain altitude below which the FAA doesn't need your report?

I found on another board that someone contacted the airport about flying their drone in their area and asked if he needed to contact them every time and the controller said not if below 150' AGL.

Unless off the end of a runway, at 200' or lower there shouldn't be any conflicts with manned aircraft as I see it.

Anyway, is there such leeway and if not, should there be and is it in the works?

Keep in mind this deals with more than just "how high you intend to fly". They (FAA) needs to have a safe space for "mechanical failures, pilot error, and of course RTH discrepancies" with our UAS. What happens if you're flying below treetops (for this scenario the trees are 75' high) enjoying the flight. Your transmitter dies and for whatever reason you had your RTH altitude set to 250' (at your house you have some tall structures you want to make sure RTH flies above). Once RTH is activated your aircraft suddenly balloons above the tree line (remember they are only 75' and you fly well below that alt) and heads potentially in a direction towards your HOME at 250' and you have NO control over what happens next.

Think outside the box and the What-Ifs because this is how Aviation works.

 

[maxheadspace]

Yes - thanks - did mean FAA.

On the subject of authorization, it can be an authorization or waiver. Authorization is a one-time deal, while a waiver allows continued operation until the waiver expires.

You are still incorrect regarding the 5 miles. That has nothing to do with commercial (Part 107) operations, and it does not determine the airspace class. Some airports are entirely Class G, some have surface Class E, D or C, and that airspace class is not simply determined by distance from the airport.

And on the recreational issue, you stated: "As for recreational flying, what one person in the tower said was OK may not be the same result you get if you call the next day and get someone else answering the phone." Since you don't need a result - you are only notifying, not requesting authorization - that concern is not relevant.

As far as "five miles," I clearly stated in my second post that I simplified "controlled airspace" by substituting "five miles", as most understand the generic five mile rule, which generally implies controlled airspace to-the-surface to the layperson. To debate that point further is merely being pedantic.

On the recreational issue, it DOES make a difference, because in the above scenario one person stated that the "tower" told him he does not need to call in if flying below 150'. Someone else in the tower may have another opinion. If the pilot has an incident within five miles, but didn't call in because "someone" in the tower once told him he didn't have to, he would potentially be in violation of the notification rule.

And for authorization versus waiver, the FAA informs us, "If you can comply with all of part 107 (without needing a waiver), but need to operate within certain controlled airspace (Class B, C, D, or E surface area), then only request airspace authorization, per section 107.41.” So, are you saying you personally have successfully used a waiver to obtain permission to fly in controlled airspace for long durations like a week, month, year?

 

[sar104]

Reading this thread with some interest.

I think to clarify, "recreational" we can assume the operator does not have a 107 License.

I'm a 107 operator (with a license) and there's plenty of class G airports around me. Every time I fly (business, proficiency, or any thing else) I consider myself under 107 and my drones are registered as commercial drones. the FAA guidelines are clear about 107 operations and when to contact class G airport operators.

"Operations in Class B, C, D and E airspace are allowed with
the required ATC permission.

• Operations in Class G airspace are allowed without ATC
permission."

https://www.faa.gov/uas/media/Part_107_Summary.pdf

Just for the hell of it I contacted the operators of several "part time" helipads that are included under the 5 mile rule of FAR 101.41(e) that are close to where I live. They told me that they could care less if they were contacted unless you were within 1/4 of their helipad and above 400', as a matter of fact one of them, an air ambulance operation preferred NOT to be contacted as they felt it would tie up their phone lines.

I'm not saying not to comply with FAR 101.41(e) but this regulation needs some serious overview as some urban areas are blanketed with helipads. Additionally the notification process is vague to say the least.

Yes - but don't forget that the FAA has clarified how it requires Part 107 pilots to obtain authorization - that is via the online portal, not by calling local ATC or airports.

Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) Frequently Asked Questions

Can I contact my local air traffic control tower or facility directly to request airspace permission?
No. All airspace permission requests must be made through the online portal.

 

[BigAl07]

...., as a matter of fact one of them, an air ambulance operation preferred NOT to be contacted as they felt it would tie up their phone lines.

Wow... that's kind of scary but maybe they were getting several calls?

We met with our local Air Ambulance provider and worked out an agreement with them long before Part 107 was even mentioned. I call their dispatch #, tell them where I'm flying, how high, how long and give them our emergency contact #. Once we are back on the ground and done we call and let them know so they can close the notification. Then they call if MAMA is coming into my area and they have called several times. Only 1 time did I need to land (she was landing a few hundreds yards from my position) but most of the time they call and say, "MAMA is coming through but she'll be at 1,500'AGL just keep an eye and give way."

While that sounds like a lot of work it's not and we put "MAMA Notification" on both PRE and POST flight check lists. Saturday we shot at 7 different locations and made both phone calls for each location and every time we called they thanked me for the call.

It's luck of the draw but at least make the effort like FLYBOYJ has done. YMMV

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yes - but don't forget that the FAA has clarified how it requires Part 107 pilots to obtain authorization - that is via the online portal, not by calling local ATC or airports.

If you're a 107 operator (with a license) you do not, have to contact a class G airport.