Why does DJI allow a CSC in flight?

[LuvMyTJ]

This is not in regards to any one post, just reminding people to continue to stay friendly here.
I applaud the current participants for not degrading this to the point of name calling.
Carry on.

 

[Steve Moore]

OK, Now we have a discussion.
Let me try to address each one of your scenarios.

1. Your being in the flight path of a real aircraft -- yes, that is a possibility. We are not trying to figure out why you are there in the first place, but this definitely is a scenario, albeit I do have the following doubts: Are you able to judge distances that far away? When the bird is anything over 100ft away from you, telling if something is in its path is pretty darn hard. Would you still want a CSC? sure

2. A family member or yourself suddenly needing medical attention. -- Can't relate to this one. You could just let your hands off and it will hover. Why crash it? If battery runs out, it will return home or land. Still better than crashing it.

3. Sudden extreme wind conditions -- I actually ran in such a situation with the P2 in the Canadian rockies. My reaction was to land it as fast as I could not crash it. While the wind was so strong that I could not get it to come to me, I could at least fight it and reduce the drone drifting away. I may still have used CSC if I saw it was going to an unrecoverable place, at least to save the SD card with the footage.

4. To prevent impact with something -- That's a tricky one. If the impact would result in the drone crashing, CSC or not it is the same result. Since again we are not debating why we are flying close to objects, this is a potential scenario to use CSC.


Finally one word about safety: If that drone falls from the sky and hits someone in the head, you better believe it can kill them.
From 50m, a drone weighing 1.5kg generates 1.5x9.81x50 = 735 Joules of potential energy, while hitting someone at a speed of 111 Km/hour or close to 70 miles per hour. That will kill!

All fair assumptions I guess, but your math is SEVERELY flawed!! Terminal velocity would be nowhere close to 70 MPH, and your energy calc has no variant for wind resistance, much less air density. Its sure as hell going to hurt!! But I highly doubt kill.

 

[Meta4]

Before we shoot or support CSC, we need to analyze in what situations it would benefit us.
Since CSC cuts the motors off, presumably the drone will fall down in a straight line. Now the question is: when do we want such a behavior to occur?
One would have to assume that you would want that 'feature' when you lost control of your device, otherwise, you could just steer it to avoid any issue.

It's very exciting to think about in flight CSC but the times one might need that are probably even more rare than accidental CSC incidents.
The popular to avoid collision scenario is pure fantasy and will probably never happen.
The others you've looked at are also implausible.
But you haven't considered the genuine, real cases where you want CSC.
Almost all are when a Phantom has crashed or landed badly and the spinning props are threatening to cause damage.
Or it lands normally but a pet or child is racing toward it.
Or if your Phantom is hooked in a tree or obstacle - you're going to need a way to shut it down (and left stick down doesn't work unless the Phantom is level for 3 secs).

Finally one word about safety: If that drone falls from the sky and hits someone in the head, you better believe it can kill them.
From 50m, a drone weighing 1.5kg generates 1.5x9.81x50 = 735 Joules of potential energy, while hitting someone at a speed of 111 Km/hour or close to 70 miles per hour. That will kill!

It looks like you have used a formula for force rather than energy, and you have assumed acceleration continues to increase.
From one idiot that flew much higher than sensible and ran out of battery, we know how fast a Phantom falls from a great height.
It's not 111 km/hr. Terminal velocity for a falling Phantom oscillates between 28-35 mph.
Since KE = 1/2 * mv², this equates to 93-146 Joules for a 1.3 kg Phantom at terminal velocity.

 

[DaveN]

Your assumption is that accidental CSC activations will happen on an increasing basis is a big flaw in this argument.
Do you have any data, numbers of incidents that support this assumption?
Of the 26000 members here, I have only seen 2 or three reports of accidental CSC in flight for the P3.
And when was the last one? Quite a few weeks back.
Accidental CSC was extremely rare for the P2 series and still is for the P3 series.
Even rarer if you could take out some spurious reports to leave just genuine accidents.
Accidental CSC is extremely rare and is not increasing.

There have been enough posts explaining that it's ridiculous to have a two step emergency shut down switch.

I’m sorry but I can’t agree with you. If nothing is done to change the way a CSC is activated, and if the number of phantoms in the public doubles, the odds, albeit low, of accidental CSC also doubles. The P3 is being advertised extensively. As I mentioned in a previous post, it’s now available at Staples, Best Buy, Walmart and other fine retailers, not just dedicated hobby sites/shops. With increased accessibility comes an increase in numbers. The increase in numbers will increase the number of inadvertent CSC’s even if the actual odds of accidental CSC remains the same.

Sure the actual accidental CSC is rare, so are major airline crashes, yet all, and I do mean all airlines and aircraft manufactures study SOP’s (Standard Operating Procedures) and aircraft design and functionality constantly. Failure to do so dooms the ignorant to litigation and obscurity. Should a procedure be reviewed after it becomes an issue or before?

While studying this issue, I found 4 cases of possible CSC's in flight since May 22, 2015. Some at this forum, some at others. I also watched a YouTube video of a possible CSC where the phantom almost hit someone on the ground. If DJI does nothing and a very rare event happens where an accidental CSC results in personal injury, will they survive litigation unscathed? Maybe, but remember one important fact in litigation. The act of not doing something IS the act of doing something. In other words, if you choose not to do something and someone gets hurt as a result of your choice, you are in part responsible for the outcome.

You said, “There have been enough posts explaining that it's ridiculous to have a two-step emergency shut down switch.” In reference to my comment about “a CSC with a warning to prevent unintentional uses”. Perhaps you were thinking of other posts as the suggestion by me was not a two-step process, rather just an audible warning that a shutdown was imminent. Two–step refers the two steps a person has to do to perform the action. This was not what I suggested.

In closing, correct me if I’m wrong but the P2 had 4 CSC activation commands, but the P3 only has 2. DJI thought they should reduce the number – why? Perhaps just to simplify the procedure, or maybe not. Food for thought.

 

[Meta4]

I don't want to keep going with this. Everything has been said again and again and makes no difference.
The hard core I want DJI to change CSC people won't be convinced and the more experienced flyers are happily flying knowing it really isn't the big issue you imagine.
Accidental CSC is like werewolves and vampires - really scary to think about - but not much of an issue to real people in real world situations.

I’m sorry but I can’t agree with you. If nothing is done to change the way a CSC is activated, and if the number of phantoms in the public doubles, the odds, albeit low, of accidental CSC also doubles.

If nothing is done to change CSC, genuine accidental CSC in flight will still be extremely rare and of no consideration when you look at all the other much more common reasons that people crash their quadcopters.

the suggestion by me was not a two-step process, rather just an audible warning that a shutdown was imminent.

As CSC is instant, an audible warning would be too late to make any difference

correct me if I’m wrong but the P2 had 4 CSC activation commands, but the P3 only has 2. DJI thought they should reduce the number – why? Perhaps just to simplify the procedure, or maybe not. Food for thought.

We don't know why DJI changed this. It could have been for any number of technical reasons.
If the intended to simplify, they could have cut it back to one.

 

[Accuracy One]

" It would be near impossible to preform a CSC in flight unless you intended to do one."

Yet newbies seem to do it once a week unintentionally. For this very reason the whole CSC procedure should be re-evaluated. Just because it's not changed since the dawn of drones, is no reason NOT to look at the procedure once in a while.

There should be a switch or something else besides the throttle to kill it. Posters have gotten angry and posted diagrams etc, but if you are descending too fast for 3-seconds it will kill the motors---period. When I land or grab my P3P in a bad landing area I just push and hold the throttle only, I do not know about several things that have to be done at once to kill it, just hold the throttle for 3-seconds, its dead. So either my new P3P is different from everybody else's are people are posting that have not flown a P3P, and it is not that far from a low throttle descent position. It should be called a B.A.N.D. feature, Buy A New Drone feature.

 

[Meta4]

if you are descending too fast for 3-seconds it will kill the motors---period.

This is complete nonsense. Just as it was the last time you posted it.
I suggest you check the responses yougot last time you posted this rubbish.
http://www.phantompilots.com/threads/crash-from-80-feet-total-destruction.44364/page-16#post-424510
You can descend with full left stick down for 33 secs (if you are high enough) and you still won't shut down the motors in flight.

When I land or grab my P3P in a bad landing area I just push and hold the throttle only, I do not know about several things that have to be done at once to kill it, just hold the throttle for 3-seconds, its dead. So either my new P3P is different from everybody else's are people are posting that have not flown a P3P, and it is not that far from a low throttle descent position. It should be called a B.A.N.D. feature, Buy A New Drone feature.

One much more likely option you didn't consider is that you have no idea what you are talking about.
This is ridiculous scaremongering and is either for malicious reasons or you're of doubtful intelligence - and if you don't have the good sense to delete of change your post, it will look like the latter.

 

[ROOF55NO]

The CSC function could be, in different situation needs to be used, BUT CSC shod never been placed in the stickers! When "nothings" in P are in function, how is it possible to just this (awful) CSC option to be working? CSC should never bnn placed in stickers, but in to different seperate buttons, in front of remote controller. You never touch them, if it not was a critical issue. DJI engineering, -go ahead!

 

[Marlin009]

There should be a switch or something else besides the throttle to kill it. Posters have gotten angry and posted diagrams etc, but if you are descending too fast for 3-seconds it will kill the motors---period. When I land or grab my P3P in a bad landing area I just push and hold the throttle only, I do not know about several things that have to be done at once to kill it, just hold the throttle for 3-seconds, its dead. So either my new P3P is different from everybody else's are people are posting that have not flown a P3P, and it is not that far from a low throttle descent position. It should be called a B.A.N.D. feature, Buy A New Drone feature.

 

[Steve Moore]

And the last 5 hours prove 100% why a "discussion" isn't going to solve anything. There is no problem with CSC, or its location/activation. Its that there are far too many people buying electric RC "toys" that have no business operating an electric razor, let alone a Drone!

 

[GhostMaster]

And the last 5 hours prove 100% why a "discussion" isn't going to solve anything. There is no problem with CSC, or its location/activation. Its that there are far too many people buying electric RC "toys" that have no business operating an electric razor, let alone a Drone!

Yup that's the problem... People think this is a smartphone... It's not... And not a toy...

 

[happydays]

Yep. Push red button to fly, blue button to land.

Or green to go, red to stop.