Unexpected visit from Contra Costa County Sheriff's Office

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So the weather has gotten much better here in the Bay Area of Northern California, so opportunities to fly in good conditions are upon us. So yesterday 03/28/2017 I figured I'd take a short relaxing flight after work not far from home in the rural area of Tassajara. I was standing in the drive way of the San Ramon Valley Fire Training facility at a time when there is nothing going on there. Empty front parking lot, not a sole in sight.

During my 30 mins or so there, a car pulled into the lot for a while, this person was on the phone but I figured it as just someone pulling over to make a call. Well that call was apparently to the police complaining about me. Around 6:30 that evening just after dinner with the family, a knock at the door was heard, to my surprise it was the police. I stepped out side to find out that there was a compliant about me trespassing on private property. I explained there was no intent to cause any issues and that the location was perfect for model pilots. They commented on the "drone" and stated they really didnt know of any laws concerning them. I let them know I was pretty familiar with the legalities, rules and common sense etc etc. They stated that they were just here to let me know that it was "private property". I have to point out that the officers were nice, no hassles...just there "as messengers".

Turns out this complaint had nothing to do with my flying (so they say, but we all know different), it was that I was standing on a driveway of the SRFD training location. This complaint didnt come from the Fire Department, but a resident near by. Sound strange? Well I did a little research and found that the building is a donation to the FD, so perhaps its still owned by the resident. None the less, Ill just park down the road a little to keep off their property.

Whats my point in all this? Second guess where your standing, look out for people spying on you and dont be surprised if the police knock on your door...but it is a little embarrassing. And yes, my wife and son made fun of me that night, she threatened to take away my "toys" if I dont stay out of trouble.

See below my location and area of flight. The little spot on the driveway is me.

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Had a similar experience myself recently, no fun having the police show up at your house over your flying! I too had to endure some teasing from my family...[emoji849] Glad it worked out well!
 
Be very careful there. Just in case you did not know; by my rough calculations you were flying with-in the San Francisco Mode C required airspace, were with-in (1/2) mile of San Francisco Class B, (bottom @ 6000 MSL), and with-in (1) mile of Livermore Class D, (check hours of operation), airspace.
Don't get me wrong; I could not care less, but your wife really will take your toy away if you bust that airspace and the Feds show up.
 
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Sorry to hear about that. Our local agency will have to drive about an hour down a gravel road if they ever want to come and talk to me about trespass from a concerned Gladys Kravitz. If you make a nuisance of it they can issue a citation but most of the time it's complaint driven. Here we wouldn't even respond unless there is a real crime in progress because of the fact that resources can be used better elsewhere. If you call and say that there is a guy standing in a driveway with burglary tools or something that's a different story.
 
Be very careful there. Just in case you did not know; by my rough calculations you were flying with-in the San Francisco Mode C required airspace, were with-in (1/2) mile of San Francisco Class B, (bottom @ 6000 MSL), and with-in (1) mile of Livermore Class D, (check hours of operation), airspace.
Don't get me wrong; I could not care less, but your wife really will take your toy away if you bust that airspace and the Feds show up.

Thanks for the concern, but according to the FAA maps and Airmap I'm well outside any restricted airspace. The Feds will not be knocking at my door. The closest restriction is Livermore municipal airport, 10 miles away from me. Just how did you complete your rough calculations on where I was flying?
 
By your photo you were 1/3 mile north of Highland road, at the San Ramon Valley Fire Training facility. That puts you inside the Mode C veil of SFO, (surface to 10,000 MSL), (1) mile East of SFO Class B, (bottom 6000 MSL), and (1) mile north of the north limit of LVK Class D, (check Supplement for hours of operation). Personally, I would check-in with your local FSDO and get a bullet proof clarification from them of the Mode C veil reporting requirments for the drone. Without Mode C on board the craft, they MAY allow a (1) hour prior to flight, phone authorization from SFO-ATC. I know a phone call would sure lower the radar controller required reporting workload to all aircraft, and they would appreciate that. You are also only (6) miles from ALTAM intersection. I believe if I lived where you do, I would buy and study a SFO/TAC chart. There is a lot going on there, even though at the surface it appears quite rural.
 
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By your photo you were 1/3 mile north of Highland road, at the San Ramon Valley Fire Training facility. That puts you inside the Mode C veil of SFO, (surface to 10,000 MSL), (1) mile East of SFO Class B, (bottom 6000 MSL), and (1) mile north of the north limit of LVK Class D, (check Supplement for hours of operation). Personally, I would check-in with your local FSDO and get a bullet proof clarification from them of the Mode C veil reporting requirments for the drone. Without Mode C on board the craft, they MAY allow a (1) hour prior to flight, phone authorization from SFO-ATC. I know a phone call would sure lower the radar controller required reporting workload to all aircraft, and they would appreciate that. You are also only (6) miles from ALTAM intersection. I believe if I lived where you do, I would buy and study a SFO/TAC chart. There is a lot going on there, even though at the surface it appears quite rural.


So this is really good information, and its appreciated. After a little reading Ive learned some valuable information, as far as the ALTAM intersection goes, perhaps Ill talk to my United Airlines pilot friend. You know, just for kicks Im going to call SFO, OAK and LVK, but something tells me once they know my location (Im in a valley), altitude (200') and distance (in sight) I might get get a never ending pass.

View media item 3306
 
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By your photo you were 1/3 mile north of Highland road, at the San Ramon Valley Fire Training facility. That puts you inside the Mode C veil of SFO, (surface to 10,000 MSL), (1) mile East of SFO Class B, (bottom 6000 MSL), and (1) mile north of the north limit of LVK Class D, (check Supplement for hours of operation). Personally, I would check-in with your local FSDO and get a bullet proof clarification from them of the Mode C veil reporting requirments for the drone. Without Mode C on board the craft, they MAY allow a (1) hour prior to flight, phone authorization from SFO-ATC. I know a phone call would sure lower the radar controller required reporting workload to all aircraft, and they would appreciate that. You are also only (6) miles from ALTAM intersection. I believe if I lived where you do, I would buy and study a SFO/TAC chart. There is a lot going on there, even though at the surface it appears quite rural.

But if this was a Part 101 flight then the surface Class C or D is irrelevant, and all that matters is whether it is within 5 miles of an airport, which would then need to be notified. Surface Class B would be a different story - that would require ATC permission and coordination even for recreational.
 
If the location works for you for flying I would figure out who to contact from the fd to get permission. Can't hurt to ask and if it's anything like my training center it should be pretty indestructible at least as far as a drone. They may. E ok with it as long as they are not using it at the time. May also get invited to go when they are using it and get some fun footage
 
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So this is really good information, and its appreciated. After a little reading Ive learned some valuable information, as far as the ALTAM intersection goes, perhaps Ill talk to my United Airlines pilot friend. You know, just for kicks Im going to call SFO, OAK and LVK, but something tells me once they know my location (Im in a valley), altitude (200') and distance (in sight) I might get get a never ending pass.

View media item 3306
I am very pleased & proud of you for delving into the airspace nuances in your area. I always use FAA Sectionals to familiarize myself with all the FAA airspace in an area I intend to fly. The Mode C veil is an interesting twist. I only included the ALTAM information since I had no idea how high you plan to go and fast movers crossing ALTAM could be on you in 1.5 minutes or even less. I cannot imagine that anything in your area will be a factor, since you only go to 200 AGL.
Happy flying!
 
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But if this was a Part 101 flight then the surface Class C or D is irrelevant, and all that matters is whether it is within 5 miles of an airport, which would then need to be notified. Surface Class B would be a different story - that would require ATC permission and coordination even for recreational.
If I am understanding you correctly, you are confusing the Mode C Veil that I am speaking of, (surface to 10,000 MSL) surrounding the SFO Class B Airspace, with Class C Airspace.
You guys will all have to cut me some slack for being new to the realm of unmanned flight. The bottom line for me as a 40 year Commercial pilot, Flight Instructor & Instrument Ground Instructor, is this; anything but Class G is controlled airspace. Personally I would not call Class C - surface airspace and Class D - (by definition - an airport traffic area with an operating control tower), "irrelevant" to your drone flying.
I am a firm believer in having a current FAA Sectional, (they are obsolete for navigation every 56 days), and studying it, prior to any drone flight. The Sectional and being aware of any current TFR's puts you in a pretty safe space. These 3rd party UAS apps that I am seeing on our phones and tablets just don't do it for me.
 
If I am understanding you correctly, you are confusing the Mode C Veil that I am speaking of, (surface to 10,000 MSL) surrounding the SFO Class B Airspace, with Class C Airspace.
You guys will all have to cut me some slack for being new to the realm of unmanned flight. The bottom line for me as a 40 year Commercial pilot, Flight Instructor & Instrument Ground Instructor, is this; anything but Class G is controlled airspace. Personally I would not call Class C - surface airspace and Class D - (by definition - an airport traffic area with an operating control tower), "irrelevant" to your drone flying.
I am a firm believer in having a current FAA Sectional, (they are obsolete for navigation every 56 days), and studying it, prior to any drone flight. The Sectional and being aware of any current TFR's puts you in a pretty safe space. These 3rd party UAS apps that I am seeing on our phones and tablets just don't do it for me.

It's irrelevant in the sense that the requirements for flying under Part 101 (recreational) do not take into account any class of airspace except for Class B.

As long as it's not Class B, all that matters is whether it is within 5 miles of an airport, in which case the requirement to notify kicks in. Class C surface or Class D do not enter into the recreational requirements.
 
It's irrelevant in the sense that the requirements for flying under Part 101 (recreational) do not take into account any class of airspace except for Class B.

As long as it's not Class B, all that matters is whether it is within 5 miles of an airport, in which case the requirement to notify kicks in. Class C surface or Class D do not enter into the recreational requirements.
Where are you reading anything about Class B being the only airspace relevant under Part 101? There is no mention of the word "Class" in the Part 101 wording at all. Below, I have included an FAA US Airspace Class chart, and below that is Part 101 - Subpart E for Model Aircraft.

I'm going to tell you how I interpret section (e) that you are referring to.

IF YOU COME WITH-IN 5 miles of "an airport", (that means ANY airport in FAA speak), you WILL provide the airport operator or control tower prior notice of the operation. I think we agree on that much.
Here's where I do not think you will agree with me.
To me, there is NOTHING here that states you can enter any Class airspace except G. Class A, B, C, & D require either ATC Clearance, 2 way radio communication radio, or both. Class A & E are out of the picture for UAS due to the 400 AGL rule.
If you were to enter Class B,C, or D, with-out prior ATC Clearance or communications, and with-out 2-way radio communications, you would be in violation of 101.43.
Part 107 certificate holder could apply for waivers, etc.
I would welcome someone enlightening me with FAA written proof, if I am wrong.

airspace.jpg


Subpart E—Special Rule for Model Aircraft*


§ 101.41 Applicability.

This subpart prescribes the rules** governing the operation of a model aircraft* that meets all of the following conditions*** as set forth in section 336 of Public Law 112-95:

(a) The aircraft is flown strictly for hobby or recreational use;
(b) The aircraft is operated in accordance with a community-based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization;
(c) The aircraft is limited to not more than 55 pounds unless otherwise certified through a design, construction, inspection, flight test, and operational safety program administered by a community-based organization;
(d) The aircraft is operated in a manner that does not interfere with and gives way to any manned aircraft; and
(e) When flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport) with prior notice of the operation.

§ 101.43 Endangering the safety of the National Airspace System.

No person may operate model aircraft so as to endanger the safety of the national airspace system.
 
Where are you reading anything about Class B being the only airspace relevant under Part 101? There is no mention of the word "Class" in the Part 101 wording at all. Below is Part 101 - Subpart E for Model Aircraft.

I'm going to tell you how I interpret section (e) that you are referring to.

IF YOU COME WITH-IN 5 miles of "an airport", (that means ANY airport in FAA speak), you WILL provide the airport operator or control tower prior notice of the operation. I think we agree on that much.
Here's where I do not think you will agree with me.
To me, there is NOTHING here that states you can enter any Class airspace except G. Class A, B, C, & D require either ATC Clearance, 2 way radio communication radio, or both. Class A & E are out of the picture for UAS due to the 400 AGL rule.
If you were to enter Class B,C, or D, with-out prior ATC Clearance or communications, and with-out 2-way radio communications, you would be in violation of 101.43.
Part 107 certificate holder could apply for waivers, etc.
I would welcome someone enlightening me with FAA written proof, if I am wrong.

airspace.jpg


Subpart E—Special Rule for Model Aircraft*


§ 101.41 Applicability.

This subpart prescribes the rules** governing the operation of a model aircraft* that meets all of the following conditions*** as set forth in section 336 of Public Law 112-95:

(a) The aircraft is flown strictly for hobby or recreational use;
(b) The aircraft is operated in accordance with a community-based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization;
(c) The aircraft is limited to not more than 55 pounds unless otherwise certified through a design, construction, inspection, flight test, and operational safety program administered by a community-based organization;
(d) The aircraft is operated in a manner that does not interfere with and gives way to any manned aircraft; and
(e) When flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport) with prior notice of the operation.

§ 101.43 Endangering the safety of the National Airspace System.

No person may operate model aircraft so as to endanger the safety of the national airspace system.

Airspace Restrictions

Airports
Recreational operators are required to give notice for flights within five miles of an airport to both the airport operator and air traffic control tower, if the airport has a tower. However, recreational operations are not permitted in Class B airspace around most major airports without specific air traffic permission and coordination.
 
Airspace Restrictions

Airports
Recreational operators are required to give notice for flights within five miles of an airport to both the airport operator and air traffic control tower, if the airport has a tower. However, recreational operations are not permitted in Class B airspace around most major airports without specific air traffic permission and coordination.
Agreed. And again here is how I read it. If you happen to get with-in 5 miles of any airport you are required to give prior notice. NOTHING here says that you can enter the Class D for all the reasons I stated above. Humor me and take the time to read what I said and the supporting FAA documentation.
 
Agreed. And again here is how I read it. If you happen to get with-in 5 miles of any airport you are required to give prior notice. NOTHING here says that you can enter the Class D for all the reasons I stated above. Humor me and take the time to read what I said and the supporting FAA documentation.

No - the point is that nothing in Part 101 says that you cannot fly in surface Class E, surface Class C, or Class D. You cannot argue that it is forbidden under 101.43, since 101.43 does not say that.

Furthermore, the statement that you may fly within 5 miles of airports if you notify them first clearly indicates that the airspace class is not the determining factor, since around many airports that would not be Class G. The only FAA statement with regard to recreational flying and airspace class is the one that I quoted above involving surface Class B.

And in relation to your previous post, Class E is not out of the question for recreational flying if it is surface Class E.

Remember that Part 101 exists as a special exemption for recreational model aircraft flight. It does not conform to normal FAA regulations, because the FAA was prohibited by Congress from regulating that activity.
 
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