The number one reason for Phantom crashes (a little surprising)

[trevsdad]

This reminds me of the low voltage cutoff (LVC) problem with the Walkera QR X350 pro. I used to have one...same size as the Phantom. Engines would suddenly shutdown when the battery got to 10%. Fortunately there was a mod available to correct the issue.

 

[phantom1972]

This is from DJI themselves.

Quite awesomely one of the techs at DJI listed the top ten reasons for their currently thousands of RMAS a month and guess what the #1 reason for RMAS is? It's not "fly aways", crashes, or anything else you might guess unless you guessed unintentional CSC motor kills.

I understand that the 2 seconds to kill the motors by putting the sticks on either of the lower corners sounds like a strange move to do but if you happen to be flying your Phantom with some fpv like moves or you are used to flying racing drones, it's not such a crazy move.

Or let's say you're descending and you happen to accidentally move the stick a little left or right and you at the same time start strafing left or right, it would not be too difficult to do the same on that side. Well in a couple nano seconds, your motors off bird is making a bee line to the ground.

Tip: it is possible to restart your motors during free fall but unless you are above 250 meters and do it right away, no chance of saving and even if you manage it, you need some luck based on how it's flying. The move is restart motor and IMEEDIATELY ascend up (no thottle forward). Test it in the sim.

I totally understand the need for a CSC fail safe should your bird go rogue and is heading towards a ton of people but if it's the number one RMA, it's obviously too easy to accidentally do. I do fly fpvs so my OCD has me constantly thinking to not accidently CSC and I never have but could totally understand if someone accidentally did and since it's by DJIs own admission the number one reason for RMAs, the solution to cut back on their RMAS is to fix this.

Real simple. Add one level of complexity to force a crash.

For example, those same stick movements but also having to press either one of the assignable bottom buttons. C1 and/or C2.

Proof is in the pudding. It's their main reason for crashing so they are probably putting more people at accidental risk then they are saving by having such an easy CSC. Never mind that they will seriously cut down on RMAs freeing up more time got R&D

Do you guys agree?

I have some insight into this because I recently experienced a crash. While the cause of my crash was not the CSC, I used it at the end of the flight for legitimate reasons. My phantom 3 professional lost attitude control and entered a descending spin. I had no control over it and it was heading toward an area where I might not have been able to recover it and it could have easily injured someone or struck someone's property like a car or building. The use of the command was practically instinctive. I have a lot of experience in operating RC aircraft and was aware of the CSC before I ever operated a phantom. That was the first time in 20 years I have used it and have never done it by mistake.
That being said, when DJI received my unit and evaluated the flight logs, they sent me an invoice with the comment "Non warranty per flight log . Pilot error shutting down motors while in flight." Needless to say that upset me, but not because of the warranty issue. I was concerned that they hadn't found the cause of the initial malfunction and had probably decided that the CSC caused it. For me this means that I will NEVER use the CSC for any reason again (other than to arm the motors) as it would most likely lead to a default diagnosis of pilot error by DJI. I can only assume that if the command is in your log files, they will automatically decide it was pilot error and not evaluate the rest of the log for any other cause.
DJI did cover my repair under warranty after I disputed my case, but I am not convinced that the unit was ever re-evaluated. When I received it back, among other issues, its flight characteristics were not that of a repaired unit. It was shaky and couldn't reasonably maintain its relative position in GPS mode. I had to send it back again.
All of this because I used the CSC appropriately to avoid personal and property damage. To be fair, DJI is communicating with me and seem to be doing what they can to resolve my issues. But, they have never told me any determined cause of my crash and have said very, very little that wasn't a "canned" response.
If you understand my story, then maybe you can understand why I now feel that the CSC is useless and will never use it again. It has caused me too much grief and I believe it greatly hindered the repair and evaluation of my unit.

So you used the CSC command in the exact set of circumstances they felt it was needed for and they're giving you a hard time? WTF? Can't they give you the benefit of any doubt.

Any shy do birds come back not fixed and in bag shape. THERE aren't that many parts! Replace the main board with ESC and GPS unit. A new sheik shell. Check the motors. Check the camera. Why all the problems?

I don't for a second thing CSC in flight is #1. Why they put it there I don't know.

 

[phantom1972]

I have some insight into this because I recently experienced a crash. While the cause of my crash was not the CSC, I used it at the end of the flight for legitimate reasons. My phantom 3 professional lost attitude control and entered a descending spin. I had no control over it and it was heading toward an area where I might not have been able to recover it and it could have easily injured someone or struck someone's property like a car or building. The use of the command was practically instinctive. I have a lot of experience in operating RC aircraft and was aware of the CSC before I ever operated a phantom. That was the first time in 20 years I have used it and have never done it by mistake.
That being said, when DJI received my unit and evaluated the flight logs, they sent me an invoice with the comment "Non warranty per flight log . Pilot error shutting down motors while in flight." Needless to say that upset me, but not because of the warranty issue. I was concerned that they hadn't found the cause of the initial malfunction and had probably decided that the CSC caused it. For me this means that I will NEVER use the CSC for any reason again (other than to arm the motors) as it would most likely lead to a default diagnosis of pilot error by DJI. I can only assume that if the command is in your log files, they will automatically decide it was pilot error and not evaluate the rest of the log for any other cause.
DJI did cover my repair under warranty after I disputed my case, but I am not convinced that the unit was ever re-evaluated. When I received it back, among other issues, its flight characteristics were not that of a repaired unit. It was shaky and couldn't reasonably maintain its relative position in GPS mode. I had to send it back again.
All of this because I used the CSC appropriately to avoid personal and property damage. To be fair, DJI is communicating with me and seem to be doing what they can to resolve my issues. But, they have never told me any determined cause of my crash and have said very, very little that wasn't a "canned" response.
If you understand my story, then maybe you can understand why I now feel that the CSC is useless and will never use it again. It has caused me too much grief and I believe it greatly hindered the repair and evaluation of my unit.

Ooh boy, I found something tht reads bad: You said you used it to potentially save lives even.

Then later you said, "For me this means I will never use the CSC for any reason ever again..."

What if you were hurtling towards a mother with a baby carriage and the CSC command would save the day?!

I couldn't help myself. Sorry. LOL

 

[yacocati]

I think putting the throttle stick at the lower position to stop the engines is a crazy mode to do this. (but maybe it's a good way to sell more and more Phantoms) I can not understand it in another way.
Somebody sells a hardware piece to install on the stick in order to prevent the accidental CSC.
In my opinion is a crazy way to stop the engines and should be modified.

 

[Meta4]

What if you were hurtling towards a mother with a baby carriage and the CSC command would save the day?!

And the problem with this commonly quoted scenario is that if you were in a position to be able to CSC to stop the Phantom, you'd also be able to do anything else with the sticks, like turn it away or climb out of trouble.
If the Phantom isn't responding to stick input, it's not going to respond to CSC either.
Yes it sounds exciting ... but it's pure fantasy and just not going to happen.

 

[Michael Enriquez]

This is from DJI themselves.

Quite awesomely one of the techs at DJI listed the top ten reasons for their currently thousands of RMAS a month and guess what the #1 reason for RMAS is? It's not "fly aways", crashes, or anything else you might guess unless you guessed unintentional CSC motor kills.

I understand that the 2 seconds to kill the motors by putting the sticks on either of the lower corners sounds like a strange move to do but if you happen to be flying your Phantom with some fpv like moves or you are used to flying racing drones, it's not such a crazy move.

Or let's say you're descending and you happen to accidentally move the stick a little left or right and you at the same time start strafing left or right, it would not be too difficult to do the same on that side. Well in a couple nano seconds, your motors off bird is making a bee line to the ground.

Tip: it is possible to restart your motors during free fall but unless you are above 250 meters and do it right away, no chance of saving and even if you manage it, you need some luck based on how it's flying. The move is restart motor and IMEEDIATELY ascend up (no thottle forward). Test it in the sim.

I totally understand the need for a CSC fail safe should your bird go rogue and is heading towards a ton of people but if it's the number one RMA, it's obviously too easy to accidentally do. I do fly fpvs so my OCD has me constantly thinking to not accidently CSC and I never have but could totally understand if someone accidentally did and since it's by DJIs own admission the number one reason for RMAs, the solution to cut back on their RMAS is to fix this.

Real simple. Add one level of complexity to force a crash.

For example, those same stick movements but also having to press either one of the assignable bottom buttons. C1 and/or C2.

Proof is in the pudding. It's their main reason for crashing so they are probably putting more people at accidental risk then they are saving by having such an easy CSC. Never mind that they will seriously cut down on RMAs freeing up more time got R&D

Do you guys agree?

I am new. Can you define RMA, and CSC. Thanks

 

[msinger]

RMA = Return Merchandise Authorization
CSC = Combination Stick Command

 

[dirkclod]

I am new. Can you define RMA, and CSC. Thanks

ACU = Acronyms Commonly Used

 

[Monte55]

OIC

 

[Waylander]

I agree too, but I would prefer to see a method that works on all remote controllers. Not all of them have a C1 and C2 button right now.

Hi Guys this works on all controllers..

 

[GoodnNuff]

Lets clear up a few things here. The red button on the Yuneec controller is the motor start/stop button. It will not kill the motors in the air. It is not a CSC.

Not sure how this works on the newer models, but it did indeed kill motors in mid flight when pressed on the original Q500, which I own.
That is why the button guard was created to stop pilots from crashing their drone when they confused the camera button with the stop start button.
Even the original owners manual advised hitting the button immediately before touchdown to kill the motors.
A firmware update a few months after the original Q500 was released required that the button be held down for 3 seconds before it would kill the motors.
Again, I'm not sure how they've addressed this issue in the newer models, is it tied into the altimeter now? That would make sense to me.

 

[RoyVa]

It's fantastic that we can have different opinions. It not cool however that their is an easy way to drop from the sky. I am not sure though while flying that I would acdidently go to the outside or inside of both stick to hit CSC. That would be some frantic flying and I have been flying for going on two years and over 400 flights with no action like that. Normal flying they just don't get that erratic. Just my 2 pennies.

 

[FraserRMAM]

I recently learned that a crash I had a month or so ago was due to CSC. I live and fly where there is some serious geographic relief; sometimes moving from one shot location to another requires a lot of both descending and lateral movement in order to get repositioned. I was backing away from a subject as well as trying to get down fairly quickly for the next angle when the stars aligned just right and as I went to spin it 180 degrees the CSC was hit just momentarily. I wouldn't say I fly like some cowboy ripping around all over the place, but I see no reason to not use the full performance of the P3 when it's useful.

I do agree that it's reasonably hard to get in that position, I'm not sure it would ever happen again. But- it does seem like a common enough occurrence that modifying the firmware in some way wouldn't be unreasonable. I use my P3P's professionally and will be using the phantomhelp.com CSC safeties on them from here on out.

 

[Jussaguy]

Hi Guys this works on all controllers..

LOL but then you don't have a CSC but those are an interesting idea. For photography, I can't really see too much of a problem using these but they also keep you from going to full descent, ascent and full speed strafing left and right, don't they? And full speed rotation in both directions for that matter.

 

[Sinisalo]

LOL but then you don't have a CSC but those are an interesting idea. For photography, I can't really see too much of a problem using these but they also keep you from going to full descent, ascent and full speed strafing left and right, don't they? And full speed rotation in both directions for that matter.

I have this on my controller, rotate it and csc works if you need it to. The only flight characteristics it affects is full speed strafing left or right while moving backwards. It only needs to be on one stick so you put it on the right stick where it doesn't affect ascent or descent

 

[msinger]

LOL but then you don't have a CSC

Sure you do. Just rotate the CSC Safety 90 degrees to allow the stick to travel to the full down position. See more details here.

FYI, I make these.

 

[Sinisalo]

Sure you do. Just rotate the CSC Safety 90 degrees to allow the stick to travel to the full down position. See more details here.

FYI, I make these.

Haha so when I ordered one that was from you? I did get the link from your list of accessories for the phantom 3

 

[msinger]

Haha so when I ordered one that was from you?

Yes, I personally make and ship them -- with the help of my wife

 

[Jussaguy]

Sure you do. Just rotate the CSC Safety 90 degrees to allow the stick to travel to the full down position. See more details here.

FYI, I make these.

Yes, I see that and it's a cool product. Thank you for making it. Do you have a 3D printer? I design in C4D if you ever need help with something.

That's cool having the ability to rotate them. I haven't used them to judge whether they are still useful as an emergency CSC by rotating them but I would imagine that's easy enough.

One thing though, and by the way, I think it's awesome of you to make those and to give them away for nothing more than a donation to your useful site. Very VERY kind of you.

Do they stop you from being able to accelerate, decelerate, rotate, and strafe at full speed in each direction though?

On second thought, I guess you need to put it on one side but which side? Either way you'll lose either some speed rotating, ascending descending (left stick) or going forward, backward, or strafing left or right (banking depending on what you're doing with the left stick on the right stick).

I'm asking. Either way, it's a great idea for people to feel more comfortable and I suppose you can change the percentages in the app. Is there a way to make 85% of the way full speed though?

I have this on my controller, rotate it and csc works if you need it to. The only flight characteristics it affects is full speed strafing left or right while moving backwards. It only needs to be on one stick so you put it on the right stick where it doesn't affect ascent or descent

Right, I just figured some of this out but still, I think I would rather personally have it affect ascend or descent than speed on strafing and forward backward. Personal preference I guess.

 

[ianwood]

While there have been a bunch of good examples (kind of like the Darwin awards for drones), let's be clear about the odds of doing a CSC mid air:

You need to descend at 100% while yawing at 100% while moving backwards at 100% while moving sideways at 100%. For 3 seconds.

If you're flying that aggressively, you've got the wrong drone. And maybe the wrong hobby. You will most certainly crash even without a CSC. These are flying machines that are subject to the laws of gravity and propulsion. They are not magic levitation machines.