The number one reason for Phantom crashes (a little surprising)

[Jussaguy]

Any real world proof for this? I've done it in the sim from 275 feet but I'm skeptical about it in the real world, and I've never heard of anyone doing it.



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I won't do a real world test but I think it would be all luck. How high you are, the rotation of the bird when they engage, etc. dunno. Would love to find out but not risking any of my birds to find out.

 

[Meta4]

Any real world proof for this? I've done it in the sim from 275 feet but I'm skeptical about it in the real world, and I've never heard of anyone doing it.

We're still waiting for a volunteer to test this one.
It has been done with a P2 but that doesn't mean it will work consistently.
Maybe it would work with a P3 .. Or maybe not?
I have a feeling 275 feet wouldn't be near enough height to recover.

 

[Jussaguy]

We're still waiting for a volunteer to test this one.
It has been done with a P2 but that doesn't mean it will work consistently.
Maybe it would work with a P3 .. Or maybe not?
I have a feeling 275 feet wouldn't be near enough height to recover.

Sounds about right. I think a drop higher but yeah.

 

[kandelin16]

We're still waiting for a volunteer to test this one.
It has been done with a P2 but that doesn't mean it will work consistently.
Maybe it would work with a P3 .. Or maybe not?
I have a feeling 275 feet wouldn't be near enough height to recover.

With the p3s price drop I have been seriously tempted to try... It's been on my mind so maybe this thread will make me pull the trigger.


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[fordruid]

With the p3s price drop I have been seriously tempted to try... It's been on my mind so maybe this thread will make me pull both levers.


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Fixed it for you in the quote

 

[UASDRONE]

This is from DJI themselves.

Quite awesomely one of the techs at DJI listed the top ten reasons for their currently thousands of RMAS a month and guess what the #1 reason for RMAS is? It's not "fly aways", crashes, or anything else you might guess unless you guessed unintentional CSC motor kills.

I understand that the 2 seconds to kill the motors by putting the sticks on either of the lower corners sounds like a strange move to do but if you happen to be flying your Phantom with some fpv like moves or you are used to flying racing drones, it's not such a crazy move.

Or let's say you're descending and you happen to accidentally move the stick a little left or right and you at the same time start strafing left or right, it would not be too difficult to do the same on that side. Well in a couple nano seconds, your motors off bird is making a bee line to the ground.

Tip: it is possible to restart your motors during free fall but unless you are above 250 meters and do it right away, no chance of saving and even if you manage it, you need some luck based on how it's flying. The move is restart motor and IMEEDIATELY ascend up (no thottle forward). Test it in the sim.

I totally understand the need for a CSC fail safe should your bird go rogue and is heading towards a ton of people but if it's the number one RMA, it's obviously too easy to accidentally do. I do fly fpvs so my OCD has me constantly thinking to not accidently CSC and I never have but could totally understand if someone accidentally did and since it's by DJIs own admission the number one reason for RMAs, the solution to cut back on their RMAS is to fix this.

Real simple. Add one level of complexity to force a crash.

For example, those same stick movements but also having to press either one of the assignable bottom buttons. C1 and/or C2.

Proof is in the pudding. It's their main reason for crashing so they are probably putting more people at accidental risk then they are saving by having such an easy CSC. Never mind that they will seriously cut down on RMAs freeing up more time got R&D

Do you guys agree?

Interesting they should have a separate swith for that.

 

[kandelin16]

Fixed it for you in the quote

Pull both levers... And suddenly become very depressed haha


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[TheRealNick]

Great post!

I only wanted to discuss CSS to begin with.

You are dead on, it's instant. Try in the SIM. It's correct.

You should definitely calibrate the IMU after a firmware update. 60 flights is not a lot and nobody thinks they will lose their connection or have a spin out/fly-away. Do yourself a favor and don't wait until I'm right.

I respectively disagree, an IMU calibration is basically zeroing the accelerators and gyros, there is no reason a firmware update would change the zeros of these sensors....unless they were lost or overwritten, but then the Phantom would know it. I worked at a vehicle manufacturing plant for awhile so I have seen the amount of work done to setup factory fixtures for assembling things. I have seen the methods used by dealership and they are far inferior to what is used at the assembly plant. Then you have the methods used in garages by everyday people.... I know this is an analogy, but I suspect DJI has a specific temperature and fixture that holds the phantom in a certain way. All their programming, testing, and validation is based on this. Most people level the skids but I think the arms (maybe motors) should probably be level....and you read about all these phantoms taking forever to warm up and having wobbles....

I would definitely perform one if I have an issue, but my phantom is always ready to fly before I am and so solid I can easily take 3 sec night exposures....

I would know if there was an IMU issue when I do my preflight checks and look at the sensor data....

The manual doesn't even really talk about it and I suspect they worried that the average user will not be able to properly perform the procedure. If I do cal it I will go to great lengths to level the arms and found out the temps that DJI used at the factory....maybe try to figure out what they level as well.

I would agree 60 flights is not that many, but if an IMU cal was required after a firmware update the issue is going to be on the next flight....

These are just my opinions, if you want calibrate your IMU and compass more frequently no worries, I am just sharing my opinions and I do like hearing others, especially the whys....

 

[Jussaguy]

I respectively disagree, an IMU calibration is basically zeroing the accelerators and gyros, there is no reason a firmware update would change the zeros of these sensors....unless they were lost or overwritten, but then the Phantom would know it. I worked at a vehicle manufacturing plant for awhile so I have seen the amount of work done to setup factory fixtures for assembling things. I have seen the methods used by dealership and they are far inferior to what is used at the assembly plant. Then you have the methods used in garages by everyday people.... I know this is an analogy, but I suspect DJI has a specific temperature and fixture that holds the phantom in a certain way. All their programming, testing, and validation is based on this. Most people level the skids but I think the arms (maybe motors) should probably be level....and you read about all these phantoms taking forever to warm up and having wobbles....

I would definitely perform one if I have an issue, but my phantom is always ready to fly before I am and so solid I can easily take 3 sec night exposures....

I would know if there was an IMU issue when I do my preflight checks and look at the sensor data....

The manual doesn't even really talk about it and I suspect they worried that the average user will not be able to properly perform the procedure. If I do cal it I will go to great lengths to level the arms and found out the temps that DJI used at the factory....maybe try to figure out what they level as well.

I would agree 60 flights is not that many, but if an IMU cal was required after a firmware update the issue is going to be on the next flight....

These are just my opinions, if you want calibrate your IMU and compass more frequently no worries, I am just sharing my opinions and I do like hearing others, especially the whys....

Same here and it definitely sounds like you know what you're talking about. I just know someone that knows these things inside and out, is constantly fixing them told me to re calibrate on a level service the IMU after a crash (which I haven't had thanks god) and a firmware update.

Other than that reason, I have nothing. When I am lacking knowledge in a certain area I defer to people that know more than I and in this case it would be that person but it also sounds like you know more about that calibration than I too but I know him and his capabilities and I just am learning yours but I appreciate the explanation.

Life is a constant education. The day we are sure we are right and everyone else is wrong, is a bad day for that person. Thanks for taking the time to explain your reasoning whether I stick to what I was told or not.

Edit: I forgot about this. My P3P took a minute to warm up every time straight out of the box which I thought was strange. Had forgot about this and it went away because someone told me to watch this and follow along and did. So at the very least if you are having more than a 30 second "IMU warming up" preflight, follow this guys method. It worked for me.

 

[LuvMyTJ]

You are probably right but we will always find something to complain about. I have a Q500 and it has a kill switch and people complain how easy it is to accidentally hit that too. I think a combination of a minor stick move (maybe just one stick) and a kill switch would suffice.

I agree with you though.

The ST10

That button in the upper left corner is the Q5 kill switch but third parties have created this to make it so you can avoid it by accident.

To me, a button with a lift lock like this would be just fine but that can't happen on our remotes, we need to make use of what's on the current remotes. The Phantom X, Tomato or whatever I bet will have something different. I hope anyway.

By the way, I don't want to start a thread on this so I'll just put it here. I have brand new batteries for $115 plus shipping. If you are in Cali you can come to my studio to pick it up. I have about 20 left so PM if you want one.

Lets clear up a few things here. The red button on the Yuneec controller is the motor start/stop button. It will not kill the motors in the air. It is not a CSC.

Lets talk about the combination stick command or CSC. Since you are a newbie you may not be familiar with it but it is a staple in the RC world and has been almost since the beginning of RC aircraft. It is designed for an emergency and it will always be there, DJI has nothing to do with it... it is a standard feature. If you manage to do a CSC by accident you should give up RC aircraft altogether.

As far as calibration goes, there is no need to calibrate at every flight, only if you change your geographical area by 75-100 miles. Your compass should not go out of calibration if you stay in the same general area.

There is a manual for it and you guys have your own brains so feel free to do what you feel is correct.

 

[Jussaguy]

Lets clear up a few things here. The red button on the Yuneec controller is the motor start/stop button. It will not kill the motors in the air. It is not a CSC.

Lets talk about the combination stick command or CSC. Since you are a newbie you may not be familiar with it but it is a staple in the RC world and has been almost since the beginning of RC aircraft. It is designed for an emergency and it will always be there, DJI has nothing to do with it... it is a standard feature. If you manage to do a CSC by accident you should give up RC aircraft altogether.

As far as calibration goes, there is no need to calibrate at every flight, only if you change your geographical area by 75-100 miles. Your compass should not go out of calibration if you stay in the same general area.

There is a manual for it and you guys have your own brains so feel free to do what you feel is correct.

That's what I said is that it should be done when you change locations. The 100 miles depends on other factors.

 

[LuvMyTJ]

That's what I said is that it should be done when you change locations. The 100 miles depends on other factors.

Right on. I live in NY and the negative magnetic declination lines are very close, every 100 miles or so and anywhere from -10 -15 so I recalibrate when I move roughly 50 miles.

 

[Jussaguy]

Lets clear up a few things here. The red button on the Yuneec controller is the motor start/stop button. It will not kill the motors in the air. It is not a CSC.

Lets talk about the combination stick command or CSC. Since you are a newbie you may not be familiar with it but it is a staple in the RC world and has been almost since the beginning of RC aircraft. It is designed for an emergency and it will always be there, DJI has nothing to do with it... it is a standard feature. If you manage to do a CSC by accident you should give up RC aircraft altogether.

As far as calibration goes, there is no need to calibrate at every flight, only if you change your geographical area by 75-100 miles. Your compass should not go out of calibration if you stay in the same general area.

There is a manual for it and you guys have your own brains so feel free to do what you feel is correct.

Even if true and I've been flying the Q500 for several months actually without that fear and I've flown several 250s but I've never done a cinematic shot where I'm pulling backwards while descending which is not that crazy of a shot.

If you are getting a shot wile pulling back and descending and happen to not be paying attention and veer left or right on both sticks, it can accidentally happen. Only on the Inspire or P3 which is what I always use, am I finding myself making that move and it frightens me every time.

Whenever I'm doing that shot, I'm thinking "Don't kill bird, don't kill bird" and that scares me.

 

[LuvMyTJ]

You would have to be holding the sticks in one of two positions. All the way in, or all the way out. I doubt you will ever do them by accident.

 

[Jussaguy]

You would have to be holding the sticks in one of two positions. All the way in, or all the way out. I doubt you will ever do them by accident.

View attachment 43928

I don't think I ever will. I suffer from general anxiety disorder, and whenever I make a move where I need to go backwards and descend (a not totally uncommon move), my OCD kicks in and I'm constantly saying to myself "don't veer over, don't veer over" and that's not what I should be thinking.

To do the opposite move, if I need to pull back and ascend (push forward), I'm at complete ease and a) since I'm not alone in that thought and b) since its in their, at the very minimum top 10 RMA, I don't see why changing it isn't a possibility to make it just as easy and not as accidental, or even just "worrying" accidental.

 

[LuvMyTJ]

Even if true and I've been flying the Q500 for several months actually without that fear and I've flown several 250s but I've never done a cinematic shot where I'm pulling backwards while descending which is not that crazy of a shot.

If you are getting a shot wile pulling back and descending and happen to not be paying attention and veer left or right on both sticks, it can accidentally happen. Only on the Inspire or P3 which is what I always use, am I finding myself making that move and it frightens me every time.

Whenever I'm doing that shot, I'm thinking "Don't kill bird, don't kill bird" and that scares me.

I could be wrong but I am pretty sure the ST10+ will also kill the motors by preforming a CSC.

 

[Jussaguy]

I could be wrong but I am pretty sure the ST10+ will also kill the motors by preforming a CSC.

You might be right but I don't almost ever fly my Q5 and I didn't know it and now that I do I will be fearful of it, rightfully or not. Thanks a lot

I know it's very unlikely but it's apparently not uncommon by the admission of DJI themselves.

I thought it was a DJI only CSC and I'm actually not a newbie and have been flying 250 racers for a long time but nobody ever pushed backwards on either stick while racing.

Obviously that's not true but pretty much the right stick goes forward in mode 2 speed drones.

 

[Meta4]

I know it's very unlikely but it's apparently not uncommon by the admission of DJI themselves.

For the benefit of any new flyers that might not know for themselves, this isn't true at all.
It's been explained to him earlier in the thread but he chooses not to listen.

 

[Jussaguy]

I could be wrong but I am pretty sure the ST10+ will also kill the motors by preforming a CSC.

You can kill the motors with a CSC but you can also kill it by simply killing the motors from the sky.

on off button

 

[Gumby]

JKD: I actually used the CSC intentionally a couple of times, and I was glad I did. One time, I stupidly decided to fly in a snowstorm. I wanted a challenge and tried landing near a bunch of trees and onto my deck. Unfortunately, the wind was causing too much drift and my drone hit a small tree branch about 20 feet above the deck. Since I was right there, I did the CSC. The engine shut off immediately, and the drone fell as expected. I was able to break the fall. There was minimal damage (just cosmetic). The drone has been working perfectly ever since. (I have 178 flights and over 2 million miles experience under my belt.)

Another time it was useful was when I landed manually on a windy day. The drone was listing a little nearly falling over with a wind gust. I did the CSC maneuver, and it shut off without consequence.

It is a valuable tool. But, one must think about using it ahead of time. If you don't have Plans A through Z ready prior to takeoff, it will be too late to use the CSC.

With that said, I think at higher altitudes, there should be a secondary move required to activate the CSC as many have suggested.

-gumby