Swelled up Phantom 2 "smart batteries"... :(
- Thread starter Joel27
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Geert said:
Hmm ... I have two batteries that are swollen and DJI just responded to my email by saying they would be replaced only if they are still under warranty (which was six months when I bought the batteries - about eight months ago - and is just three months now).
I'm going to try going straight to the dealer ... if I can figure out which battery was bought from whom.
-- Roger
It is really important to buy from a good dealer, since it seems DJI will not give the support needed. There have been several references to dealers with good customer support. Has anyone made a list of dealers that stand behind their customers with excellent support?
Hi all,
I have 2 phantoms , 5 batteries, all working fine.
My question is with the wifi battery attached to the controller. They seem to loose power just sitting.
Anyone have similar issues. How long do they last?
My galaxy S3 battery runs down after the first 25 minutes.
A lot of charging but I want to fly safe.
Thanks, Happy flying
Radar
I have 2 phantoms , 5 batteries, all working fine.
My question is with the wifi battery attached to the controller. They seem to loose power just sitting.
Anyone have similar issues. How long do they last?
My galaxy S3 battery runs down after the first 25 minutes.
A lot of charging but I want to fly safe.
Thanks, Happy flying
Radar
Yeah, I just noticed that I have 4 batteries that are swelling. When flying with them, the Phantom starts "auto-landing" around 60% charge. The back leds blink red as well. this is crap. Just looked up on the DJI website and the warranty is only for 3 months! guess I'm screwed.
I don't want to total out my phantom by buying more crappy batts. At 140 apiece it dosnt take long.Joel27 said:
I have 3 and 2 of them are swollen----------- like get back swollen. If the add ons are causing this by over taxing the batts then you would think there would be more research on the dji side of things. The more swollen the closer I keep them. Has any one checked to see if there are any problems with the Walkera 500s batteries------that's one sexy bird. That's my only complaint with the phantom is the batteries. Maybe I need to look on the bright side of it. Lithium is a precursor in making Meth. Have to make my money back some how. Just kidding . Not kidding about going to the Walkera sight though. Maybe that's what dji needs is a little competition in the proprietary battery department to bring quality up.
There is a subtle difference between puffing and swelling.
A slight gas discharge within the battery envelope is almost normal and very common. It is due to heat build up, but this can be caused by ambient temperature as well as heat generated through use. It can be a sign that the battery is getting to the end of its life, but not always.
Swelling is a permanent increase in battery volume caused by a chemical breakdown in the battery - often due to a knock or over discharge. This is dangerous, as the cell could rupture and catch fire.
It is difficult to tell, but if you cool a battery down to 10 degrees C or so, any gaseous swelling should go. If the battery remains puffed or swollen, safely dispose of it.
Of course, if you can get DJI to replace them either way...
A slight gas discharge within the battery envelope is almost normal and very common. It is due to heat build up, but this can be caused by ambient temperature as well as heat generated through use. It can be a sign that the battery is getting to the end of its life, but not always.
Swelling is a permanent increase in battery volume caused by a chemical breakdown in the battery - often due to a knock or over discharge. This is dangerous, as the cell could rupture and catch fire.
It is difficult to tell, but if you cool a battery down to 10 degrees C or so, any gaseous swelling should go. If the battery remains puffed or swollen, safely dispose of it.
Of course, if you can get DJI to replace them either way...
Called DJI today about a swollen battery…I have only had my Phantom 2 and two batteries since April of this year… Both batteries have been stored in the same place and in the same manner...I was told by DJI that they will not replace the battery because the warranty expired after 3 months…so basically Im out $130…This is NOT good customer service at all…5 months old and this is the way they treat you? If it was a year old, I can understand, but 5 months?
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UPDATE:
I have yet another battery going bad and puffing.... less than 20 flights. I have posted my downlink video (with OSD - voltage and battery use info) for the dealer and DJI to look at to prove I'm not abusing my batteries (like running them way low).
I'm getting a bit pissed because I've calculated on the battery cost alone my flights are costing me over $8.00 each flight! $160 original battery (yes, they are less now....) divided by 19 flights - YEIKS! :shock:
If anyone is interested here is raw downlink video recorded to my DVR1000: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYxAhsa ... v9RAwmesQg
I have yet another battery going bad and puffing.... less than 20 flights. I have posted my downlink video (with OSD - voltage and battery use info) for the dealer and DJI to look at to prove I'm not abusing my batteries (like running them way low).
I'm getting a bit pissed because I've calculated on the battery cost alone my flights are costing me over $8.00 each flight! $160 original battery (yes, they are less now....) divided by 19 flights - YEIKS! :shock:
If anyone is interested here is raw downlink video recorded to my DVR1000: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYxAhsa ... v9RAwmesQg
noiseboy72 said:
My two batteries weren't as "swollen" as some I've seen in photographs. So, after reading your message, I put them in the warmest spot in my refrigerator for an hour or two. All signs of "swelling" are gone! I guess mine must have just been a little puffy. I've marked them so I can more closely watch them in the future, but I'm putting them back into use.
Thanks!
-- Roger
I thought it was supposed to be excessively rapid charging or discharging that was supposed to cause this problem, not just excessive discharging.
Also, the dji panntom 2 vision user manual specifically says:
Also, the dji panntom 2 vision user manual specifically says:
So I'm a bit confused about this "never discharge below 30%" stuff, though I know you don't want to completely discharge a lithium ion battery to 0.
I have always thought it a little strange as well, but I assume that it is not really 8% of total capacity, but 8% of safe discharge or something?
I'm pretty sure that the "8%" is the point at which the "intelligent battery" mechanism is supposed to break the circuit to prevent the battery from deep discharging, but it depends on how they're calculating 8%. So unlike my phone I think it's more like 8% of total capacity, and anything lower than that is an unsafe deep discharge. However if this is true and if everything is working properly it should be impossible to discharge the battery below 8% unless you remove the battery controller logic and connect something to the cells directly (very bad idea). The key point is, the manufacturer (DJI) says to discharge the battery periodically until the battery management logic shuts it off, then completely recharge it until the charger shuts off automatically.
The problem is that any displayed percentage is calculated according to a voltage drop curve that can change as the battery is charged and discharged to different levels. The controller probably doesn't shut the battery off based on this percent estimate, it shuts it off when the voltage drops below a certain point. If the "% charge left" mechanism gets decalibrated then it may seem to shut off at 0% or 20% etc because the % number is just bogus at that point, and you really don't want that number to be bogus because it's used by the failsafe mechanism on your aircraft to decide when to engage. Discharging the battery to the point that it shuts off due to low voltage and completely recharging it calibrates the function that it uses to convert voltage into "% remaining". This may actually help to ensure that overcharging doesn't occur if somehow the "100%" voltage number is getting used for overcharge prevention and the (decalibrated) shutoff voltage is too high.
This also happens with cell phones, and is why it's good to occasionally run your phone battery down until it shuts off, then completely recharge it until the charging process shuts off. Then it can "relearn" what voltage levels translate to 0% and 100%. (If I don't do this with my iPhone, it will sometimes run for a while displaying 0%, display 100% even after being used for quite some time, or shut down unexpectedly while displaying 10-20% remaining etc.)
In the case of these "smart batteries", I would recommend following DJI's advice and not the advice of people who have been using "dumb" bare lithium batteries with no power management logic who are essentially performing the power management logic manually. They're doing what they should do for "dumb" batteries where it's totally up to the user to manually avoid over discharging or overcharging, but if you try to manage the battery as though it were "dumb", you will probably screw up the calibration of the management logic on the battery by essentially "double managing" it, causing more problems than you're avoiding.
FYI: someone mentioned checking individual cell voltages to see if they're out of balance. You can do this in the DJI Assistant app. If I saw these and they weren't roughly equal, I'd definitely discharge the battery until it shut off, then recharge it until it shut off. After that I'd check it later after it had partially discharged after a flight to see if they were in balance again. If the battery comes from the factory and the cell voltages aren't roughly equal before I charge it for the first time, that would worry me and I'd probably send the battery back to the factory rather than try to "fix" it myself. (If everyone else is normally seeing those numbers in balance in brand new batteries then I wouldn't want to take any chances on one of the cells just plain being bad rather than due to some sort of charging system calibration problem.)
The problem is that any displayed percentage is calculated according to a voltage drop curve that can change as the battery is charged and discharged to different levels. The controller probably doesn't shut the battery off based on this percent estimate, it shuts it off when the voltage drops below a certain point. If the "% charge left" mechanism gets decalibrated then it may seem to shut off at 0% or 20% etc because the % number is just bogus at that point, and you really don't want that number to be bogus because it's used by the failsafe mechanism on your aircraft to decide when to engage. Discharging the battery to the point that it shuts off due to low voltage and completely recharging it calibrates the function that it uses to convert voltage into "% remaining". This may actually help to ensure that overcharging doesn't occur if somehow the "100%" voltage number is getting used for overcharge prevention and the (decalibrated) shutoff voltage is too high.
This also happens with cell phones, and is why it's good to occasionally run your phone battery down until it shuts off, then completely recharge it until the charging process shuts off. Then it can "relearn" what voltage levels translate to 0% and 100%. (If I don't do this with my iPhone, it will sometimes run for a while displaying 0%, display 100% even after being used for quite some time, or shut down unexpectedly while displaying 10-20% remaining etc.)
In the case of these "smart batteries", I would recommend following DJI's advice and not the advice of people who have been using "dumb" bare lithium batteries with no power management logic who are essentially performing the power management logic manually. They're doing what they should do for "dumb" batteries where it's totally up to the user to manually avoid over discharging or overcharging, but if you try to manage the battery as though it were "dumb", you will probably screw up the calibration of the management logic on the battery by essentially "double managing" it, causing more problems than you're avoiding.
FYI: someone mentioned checking individual cell voltages to see if they're out of balance. You can do this in the DJI Assistant app. If I saw these and they weren't roughly equal, I'd definitely discharge the battery until it shut off, then recharge it until it shut off. After that I'd check it later after it had partially discharged after a flight to see if they were in balance again. If the battery comes from the factory and the cell voltages aren't roughly equal before I charge it for the first time, that would worry me and I'd probably send the battery back to the factory rather than try to "fix" it myself. (If everyone else is normally seeing those numbers in balance in brand new batteries then I wouldn't want to take any chances on one of the cells just plain being bad rather than due to some sort of charging system calibration problem.)
Last time I flew my P2V I decided afterward that I'd fully discharge the battery. (After all if the charge management unit isn't working properly then I want to know about it before the warranty expired.) According to the DJI wiki http://wiki.dji.com/en/index.php/Phanto ... ht_Battery
"Overcharging Protection:Charging stops automatically when the battery voltage reaches 12.8V to prevent overcharging damage.
Over Discharging Protectionischarging stops automatically when the battery voltage reaches 8.4V to prevent over discharging damage."
So I plugged the thing into my laptop and watched the battery info in the DJI utility as it ran down. Seems that it reached "0%" way before it got to 8.4V and shut itself off, so I'm not sure what 0% is based on. (The thing stayed on with the rotors not running for quite a while, draining at 600mA or so, even at "0%". So the battery is certainly not dead at that point and hasn't even reached unsafe shutoff voltage.
Then I charged it back up and checked it. Cell voltages all balanced, voltages look good, etc. Perhaps "0%" is the point at which the voltage is too low to run the motors at all, even at idle, but it seems like they stop operating reliably (speed, torque) at "10%". My guess is, below 10% the best they can do is try to emulate a parachute, but the electronics can keep operating for quite a while since they only need 600mA.
"Overcharging Protection:Charging stops automatically when the battery voltage reaches 12.8V to prevent overcharging damage.
Over Discharging Protection
ischarging stops automatically when the battery voltage reaches 8.4V to prevent over discharging damage."So I plugged the thing into my laptop and watched the battery info in the DJI utility as it ran down. Seems that it reached "0%" way before it got to 8.4V and shut itself off, so I'm not sure what 0% is based on. (The thing stayed on with the rotors not running for quite a while, draining at 600mA or so, even at "0%". So the battery is certainly not dead at that point and hasn't even reached unsafe shutoff voltage.
Then I charged it back up and checked it. Cell voltages all balanced, voltages look good, etc. Perhaps "0%" is the point at which the voltage is too low to run the motors at all, even at idle, but it seems like they stop operating reliably (speed, torque) at "10%". My guess is, below 10% the best they can do is try to emulate a parachute, but the electronics can keep operating for quite a while since they only need 600mA.
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ok so for all us dummies out there....
How do we discharge batteries?
do we run the phantom until it stops?
is there a discharge plug in?
Can someone share that please for us who are not sure how its done
How do we discharge batteries?
do we run the phantom until it stops?
is there a discharge plug in?
Can someone share that please for us who are not sure how its done
What I would recommend is this: If the batteries are over 10%, let the rotors idle until they shut off. Do this in a SAFE place where the wind for example isn't going to blow the thing over, or secure it to something so it can't move. Do NOT "rev' the motors because the thing is likely to tip and grind the rotors against the ground, concrete, etc. (Especially when the battery is low, the rotors may not all spin up at the same speed, so one rotor might develop lift when the others don't.) While you might be thinking you could have someone hold the thing while you run the motors at 100%, this is a BAD IDEA because it may discharge the battery too fast, causing the puffing that the whole thread is about. So basically, just let the motors run at idle speed with the thing sitting where the wind isn't going to knock it over, or secure it to something somehow and let it run at idle, and keep it level because if you hold it at an angle or tie it down where its at an angle, it will be running the motors like crazy thinking it needs to automatically level itself. You want the motors to discharge it at a safe steady pace.
Below some % the motors will just shut off and you won't be able to power them back on, but the battery itself and the electronics will still be on. Don't try to restart the motors. At this point just plug the thing into your computer and let it sit idle with the motors off (shut off the remote control etc). Watch the battery screen in the DJI assistant to see where the voltage, etc, is at. The individual cell voltages should be close to the same, and you should be able to just leave it there until it drains to where it's providing less than 8.4V total, at which point the charge management unit on the battery (the "smart battery" electronics) will just shut off the battery. If the voltage ever reads less than 8.4V, then you have a bad battery (either cells are bad or the charge management unit is bad). If it's under warranty then send it back for a replacement.
Once the battery shuts off, you might want to let it cool for a few minutes but this probably isn't necessary since it's only been draining at 600mA (at least on my P2V with the camera on. The P2V+ may drain faster even with the motors off. It should really only heat up when it's being drained really fast, such as by the motors running at maximum.) Just plug it into the charger and let it charge until it shuts off, then remove it from the charger. If you want to check it, put it back in the drone, power it on, plug the drone in via usb, and check the battery screen in the assistant. Cell voltage should be almost the same and it should read "99% charged" or so.
Whatever you do, do NOT fully discharge it and then put it in storage or something. Personally, I wouldn't wait more than an hour or so to get it connected to the charger (though it should be OK for more than one hour. The charge management unit is only supposed to drain it at about 10mA when the battery is switched off.) If you think it might be a day or something before you can connect it to the charger for some reason, then don't discharge the thing until it shuts off (that is don't drain it to 8.4V, shut it off manually at 10V or something and that should make it safer to wait longer to charge it.)
While the batteries may be designed to be 'idiot proof" in exactly the same way cell phone and laptop batteries are, a cell phone or laptop isn't going to crash into the ground and destroy itself if the battery fails. So it makes sense to at least learn what looks normal on the battery info screen in the DJI utility so you can spot potential problems before they become real expensive problems. And keeping an eye on things means that you may be able to return a defective battery before the warranty is up.
Below some % the motors will just shut off and you won't be able to power them back on, but the battery itself and the electronics will still be on. Don't try to restart the motors. At this point just plug the thing into your computer and let it sit idle with the motors off (shut off the remote control etc). Watch the battery screen in the DJI assistant to see where the voltage, etc, is at. The individual cell voltages should be close to the same, and you should be able to just leave it there until it drains to where it's providing less than 8.4V total, at which point the charge management unit on the battery (the "smart battery" electronics) will just shut off the battery. If the voltage ever reads less than 8.4V, then you have a bad battery (either cells are bad or the charge management unit is bad). If it's under warranty then send it back for a replacement.
Once the battery shuts off, you might want to let it cool for a few minutes but this probably isn't necessary since it's only been draining at 600mA (at least on my P2V with the camera on. The P2V+ may drain faster even with the motors off. It should really only heat up when it's being drained really fast, such as by the motors running at maximum.) Just plug it into the charger and let it charge until it shuts off, then remove it from the charger. If you want to check it, put it back in the drone, power it on, plug the drone in via usb, and check the battery screen in the assistant. Cell voltage should be almost the same and it should read "99% charged" or so.
Whatever you do, do NOT fully discharge it and then put it in storage or something. Personally, I wouldn't wait more than an hour or so to get it connected to the charger (though it should be OK for more than one hour. The charge management unit is only supposed to drain it at about 10mA when the battery is switched off.) If you think it might be a day or something before you can connect it to the charger for some reason, then don't discharge the thing until it shuts off (that is don't drain it to 8.4V, shut it off manually at 10V or something and that should make it safer to wait longer to charge it.)
While the batteries may be designed to be 'idiot proof" in exactly the same way cell phone and laptop batteries are, a cell phone or laptop isn't going to crash into the ground and destroy itself if the battery fails. So it makes sense to at least learn what looks normal on the battery info screen in the DJI utility so you can spot potential problems before they become real expensive problems. And keeping an eye on things means that you may be able to return a defective battery before the warranty is up.
I've mentioned before that two of my older batteries were swelling or puffing after use. But, allowing them to cool down, most of the swelling went away.
Still concerned about them, though, I bought two new batteries. Previously, I was working the three batteries I had pretty hard at our rocket launches, charging two batteries while I was flying the third. And, I was landing and switching batteries when it was convenient rather than when the battery was low. Also, it's been very hot here in Central Florida (still is).
So, this last Saturday, I charged only one battery at a time and I tried to fly each battery until the low battery alarm signaled (I even had the 'copter autoland way out in the middle of the field once when I waited too long). After I finished using a battery, I sat it in the shade until it was its turn to be used in rotation.
This time, only one of the older batteries showed any sign of puffiness and I'm not sure it wasn't that puffy before I started using it on Saturday.
I'm not thrilled to have invested about half as much in batteries as I originally spent on the P2V and I miss more of the rocket launches using this method. But, maybe it'll allow me to get more use out of the batteries I have before I need to buy another.
-- Roger
Still concerned about them, though, I bought two new batteries. Previously, I was working the three batteries I had pretty hard at our rocket launches, charging two batteries while I was flying the third. And, I was landing and switching batteries when it was convenient rather than when the battery was low. Also, it's been very hot here in Central Florida (still is).
So, this last Saturday, I charged only one battery at a time and I tried to fly each battery until the low battery alarm signaled (I even had the 'copter autoland way out in the middle of the field once when I waited too long). After I finished using a battery, I sat it in the shade until it was its turn to be used in rotation.
This time, only one of the older batteries showed any sign of puffiness and I'm not sure it wasn't that puffy before I started using it on Saturday.
I'm not thrilled to have invested about half as much in batteries as I originally spent on the P2V and I miss more of the rocket launches using this method. But, maybe it'll allow me to get more use out of the batteries I have before I need to buy another.
-- Roger
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interesting,
Thanks mate.
Haven't had any issues with my 4 batteries to date.
But Usually I fly mine within sight (line of sight) until I get more comfortable with the thing.So that means I can bring it down and check battery lights flashing while hovering. So I usually replace batteries when I have 1 or 2 greens not flashing. So the used battery goes back in the carry case until I get back to the car to run the inverter for recharging. my point is mate, I have never run my batteries that low but maybe I should now and then.
Thanks again for your feedback.
Angelo
Thanks mate.
Haven't had any issues with my 4 batteries to date.
But Usually I fly mine within sight (line of sight) until I get more comfortable with the thing.So that means I can bring it down and check battery lights flashing while hovering. So I usually replace batteries when I have 1 or 2 greens not flashing. So the used battery goes back in the carry case until I get back to the car to run the inverter for recharging. my point is mate, I have never run my batteries that low but maybe I should now and then.
Thanks again for your feedback.
Angelo
I just had my second battery swell (the p2 crash landed as I was descending around 30%). I have recently added a fpv transmitter. In looking at replacement batteries, I see there is a variety of mAh levels available. If the swelling is caused by over discharge after adding the transmitter, could a battery with a higher mAh solve the problem?
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