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So, what are the best and most efficient props?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Ton4, Jan 26, 2014.

  1. Ton4

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    Obviously the Vision Props seem to give the best flight time, I have two plastic versions, one DJI, the other copy.

    They both have had unfortunate encounters with surfaces they are not meant to touch, I may be able to sand them into usabilty again, can balance them with the famous rod.

    I also have a carbon version of the vision style props, sold as balanced, and after some black hands they indeed are balanced now.

    (don't sand the plastic ones with the same sanding paper as you did the carbon ones, I have learned :) )

    Vibration wise the carbon vision style do well, with 8 softballs and the CM3000 in slow flight, and they sound cool. Rapid descents or ascending still vibes..

    What is the best brand for the vision style carbon props?

    I am grounded now, I cannot compare, but if you have compared plastic and carbon style vision props vibration wise?


    ELGuano also uses cf vision props, I think I have seen. Do you use any particular brand?

    Thanks...
     
  2. GhostMaster

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    Stock ones are better, they give you nice footage, and in descends they dont vive much, carbon is the way to crash the phantom...
     
  3. Ton4

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    Why do you say that?
     
  4. ElGuano

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    Yep I have the cf vision props. I don't know if any have a brand name since they're totally generic knockoffs, but 4 sets from different sellers all look identical (same manufacturer) so I bet wherever you get them they will be from the same factory.

    DJI doesn't recommend cf props because the lack of a flappy hinge makes for less efficient forward movement. But as for descending, I have not found any difference between cf and plastic props. Both will wobble in VRS if you come down too quickly, and it's mainly a matter of balance, gains, and knowing the operational envelope of your craft. I've dropped it into manual and plunged hundreds of feet to get down quickly and have "recovered" from it without issue. Normally I come down with gentle forward /backward elevator motion to stay out of the prop wash.
     
  5. GhostMaster

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    Re: So, what are the best and most efficient props?

    Others reported crashes with CF props.
     
  6. Ton4

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    Like in breaking props or something?
     
  7. ElGuano

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    Re: So, what are the best and most efficient props?

    If that's the extent of the evidence, I'd suggesting has nothing to do with cf being bad, and more to do with people not balancing new props, not correctly adjusting gains, and not getting used to changes in flight characteristics from installing new props. This goes for plastic, cf and paper mâché props.

    There are a lot of people out there with 10x more prop varieties than I've tried, but I have 4 sets of plastic 8" props, 3 sets of 8" cf props and 4 sets of cf 9.4" props, and changes in prop profile, length and pitch have way more effect on flight than material does.
     
  8. havasuphoto

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    Re: So, what are the best and most efficient props?

    What gain values did you change when using the 9.4" vision props?
    I have a Phantom 1.2, and am getting the knock-off Vision 2 props(non-CF)...I have a Futaba T8J remote, so I already have dual rates. 1 being the stock Phantom settings(125% INH?), and with the flip of a switch-it reduces the center sensitivity to 50%, and the rate to 90%.

    There's like 6 threads, just from Today and Yesterday-all about adding Vision 9.4" props to Phantom 1's. Maybe we can just consolidate?

    It would be nice if those that have used the knock-off/white, 9.4" plastic Vision props(non-self tightening), on Phantom 1's, could report what gain values they felt worked the best-or, if my "rate cut" will be sufficient.

    I already have a nice balancer, so that will be the first thing I do....
     
  9. ElGuano

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    Re: So, what are the best and most efficient props?

    Gains will depend on a number of things including weight and balance. I don't think there is a general "rule of thumb" with respect to 9443 gains, other than to balance the props before trying to adjust them. Maybe others have experimented more and have a better sense.
     
  10. havasuphoto

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    Re: So, what are the best and most efficient props?

    OK. Well, what is your weight, and what are your gain?
    I can extrapolate the numbers you give me, into a reduction on my "rate cut" settings on my Futaba remote.

    I understand about weight, and other things...just looking for some numbers to give me a general idea of the amount of reduction people are using.
     
  11. ElGuano

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    Re: So, what are the best and most efficient props?

    Don't forget, my phantom is also reversed, so my gimbal is facing the "back" and my dual batteries are inside the shell and balancing the COG. This affects both the basic and attitude gains I may be using. There's probably nothing anyone should try extrapolate based on what I've done with my frankenquad :)

    My phantom flies well between 100 and 225 on basic gains (no oscillations with current setup), and lately I've been tending towards the higher end, along with 135 vertical to account for the heavier battery. I mainly stay with 95 on attitude gains not for props but for video panning control.
     
  12. havasuphoto

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    Re: So, what are the best and most efficient props?

    Yea-I'm not sure your gains will be of any value.
    So basically, you're going from 125% to 90.......which is what I'm doing with my dual rate control.
     
  13. ElGuano

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    So, what are the best and most efficient props?

    Well it depends on what gains you're talking about. I'm at 90ish attitude gain, but that was with 8" props as well (again for filming). For basic gains I pushed them up quite a ways from 125, especially yaw gain since I found that it's easier to compensate for 2-axis yaw wobble when it's fast.

    You may want to increase your basic or attitude gains with 9" props, you may be one of the few people who want to decrease them, but it all depends on your specific setup, and it's rarely a matter of "need." In any event, the effect of gains for smooth flight with 9" props is secondary, so I wouldn't sweat it too much. This isn't the thing that makes or breaks the upgrade.

    If your craft is such that it absolutely needs gain adjustment else it is uncontrollable or crashes, nothing anyone else has set it to will help, it will come down to you making the gains adjustments that prevent the craft from acting that way (either up or down).
     
  14. havasuphoto

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  15. ElGuano

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    Re: So, what are the best and most efficient props?

    Here's an example. DSLRpros released some "tested and approved" gains changes for their 9" props.

    http://www.dslrpros.com/Blog/tabid/148/ ... fault.aspx

    A bunch of people used them, and some had uncontrollable oscillations and crashed. Are they garbage settings? I dunno, I don't use them, but it illustrates that there is no real "ballpark" you can rely on between different quads. Part of the reason is because a number of quads are balanced enough to tolerate wide gain changes--to a degree it is preference to responsiveness. But what is acceptable to some may be poor to others, and what is stable for some phantoms may be very unstable for other similarly equipped ones.
     
  16. havasuphoto

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    Re: So, what are the best and most efficient props?

    That's interesting.
    Here's a question; isn't the Phantom Vision, just a Phantom 1 with a camera and bigger battery?? What are it's gain settings? OR, is it using a different software version of the Naza-M, and therefore the 2 settings wouldn't correlate?
    Obviously, my concern is when flying in GPS mode, just after takeoff, without moving any controls-the aircraft will become uncontrollable and crash.

    I have a different rate switch for my remote-for filming. This cuts the responsiveness of Joysticks on the remote to around 50% and limits the totals travel to 90%(as verified in Naza-normal is +/- 1000, with switch down, it's 900).
    But, I don't know if the issue people are having is because their remote is too sensitive, OR, Naza gain values are not set "correctly" for the 9 1/2" props?

    1 guy says to lower the gain values, another says raise them....DSLR Pro's has you raise them all, for their CF props-but as you said, some have lost control and crashed. Was this because there remote was too sensitive, or was it in GPS mode, and they didn't move any of the sticks, and it still crashed?

    I'm sure I'm not the only one out there with these questions(just checked-17 people viewing this thread)-so I greatly appreciate your help and insight.
    I just want to be able to pick the Phantom up to a hover(GPS mode), and if the controls are too sensitive-I can cut the rate, and land. But, IF I can't control the aircraft, and it crashes-that's going to ruin my day ;)
     
  17. ElGuano

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    Re: So, what are the best and most efficient props?

    I don't know about the p2v, but I'm sure DJI set its gains for a 1150g balanced quad with 9443s. The balance is different from a gimbaled phantom 1 but what they label gains (or if they hide it in some Naza mode) I dunno.

    Stick rate limits are entirely different from attitude gains. The set rate affects the responsiveness but the attitude gains will still react as they are set (although to the reduced rates).

    People have gains all over the place because 1) gains tend to have a wide range under normal flight conditions, 2) people usually don't mess with them until they change components, and when they do they go in preemptively or immediately after installing the upgrade trying to find the "right" gains, and they may mistake the effect of the component with the effect of gain. High gains a may hover beautifully, but oscillate uncontrollably during fast descent. Low gains may do the same and not be able to recover in extreme conditions.

    My recommendation is to really try to get out of the mindset that there is a single right gain setting for a particular component. It may be ideal to go up from default or down depending on your particular Phantom. Balance the new props, go fly, and see if anything feels weird. If it's uncontrollably sluggish and can't find hover easily, then adjust your vertical. If it seesaws rapidly side to side, then look at changing your basic roll. If it just feels different (9443s do), take several flights and try to get accustomed to it. And if it just doesn't fly to your liking, then you can examine the relevant gains and see if you can optimize, again it could be up or down.

    Just my $0.02.I don't go gain crazy on upgrades (and I have made quite a few upgrades) but I have burned 180+ consecutive flight minutes on a familiar setup adjusting nothing but individual gains to try to understand how they work and what they can and can't fix. I'm still not very expert with them.
     
  18. havasuphoto

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    Re: So, what are the best and most efficient props?

    Well, you still know a whole lot more than me.
    I'm hoping someone else will chime in with their settings. I'm at 1270ish grams, with Zen, GP3, iOSD, FPV, and E, I, E, I, O... :)

    11 people still reading this thread.....come on in, tell us what setting you're using....??
     
  19. Ton4

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    Re: So, what are the best and most efficient props?

    Unfortunately true.
     
  20. ElGuano

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    So, what are the best and most efficient props?

    With 9" props you need to be very careful on descent whether carbon or plastic. There are many, many reports of reports of death wobble on stock plastic DJI 9443s, and a number of crashes (on the p2/PV forums, way more than with carbon props, since most people there run stock). People simply don't know that the phantom platform is susceptible to VRS of descending fast, and lots of people just hold down the throttle to return from altitude. If you're settling with power the material of the props doesn't matter much, the vector does. Gotta take care while flying no matter what your props are made of :)