Phantom 1.1.1 with P2V props - Gain adjustment?

[dbcch]

Wow, great 'come back'. or whatever. Your Mom probably wants you to get back to your homework, so get to it man.

You guys who care about the gain settings:

See earlier posts. Advise lowering almost all pretty decent amount to avoid over-compensation and unstable flight.

I'm out of this thread due to inflammatory and cultural slurs. I obviously wasn't presenting my 'best work', I, like others, just enjoy sharing videos. And, yes, the wind does make it difficult to get totally stable video.

p.s. I was never 'wrong' a first time.

 

[GMANNZ]

Dont sweat it Dbcch .... his mom beats him for anything and so ..... has trouble playing nice.

 

[FlyingFanta]

Why do you have the prop guards on with the larger props?

First, those are the Phantom 2 prop guards designed for 9" propellers. They are NOT the old prop guards that wouldn't even cover the 9" props. These are longer, thinner..

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjJIgZdK9_8[/youtube]

Wait. Hang on. Are these 3rd party 9" prop guards? Do you have a URL for these?

 

[adam12hicks]

CunningStuntFlyer please go find something else to do. Nobody here appreciates your attitude.

 

[ElGuano]

So, maybe the larger props help mitigate the jello effect on the Phantom 1?!?

Respectfully, I don't think that's the case (at least not at the scale we're talking about here). Of course, it's great that you're not seeing as much jello with the larger props; if it's an improvement, that's a success and you should definitely go with it.

However, I don't think the 1.4" difference between the 8" and 9" props are inherently reducing jello. Jello is caused by vibrations of a certain frequency, of which interact with the particular frame rate of a CMOS rolling-shutter-equipped camera (which alone is determined by a number of factors, including CMOS capture rate, ISO, framerate, and shutter speed). It's much more likely that your 9" props are balanced better than your 8" props were, or just balanced differently, such as the high frequency vibrations they introduce to your Phantom (and are transferred to your CMOS camera) aren't as strong or of the right frequency/amplitude to trigger visible jello. Lots of 9" props, and lots of 9443-style props will jello horribly if unbalanced or used without isolation mounts, just as lots of 8" props do. I think in this case, you and your wife benefited from the luck of the draw!

Btw, I think it's great that your wife is flying. Mine won't touch the Phantom for fear she'll auger in, but I have the feeling she'd be a better pilot than I am if she tried, so I'm OK with that :lol:

 

[reALIGNed]

Hi guys, I have a really stupid question (I think). I've been following this thread from the beginning and I like the idea of an "improved" propeller. My question is.........why is it necessary to adjust the gains? Doesn't this tame it down to stock behavior, and if so why the swap? I think I missed something along the way or read too deep, can someone please explain it...in simple terms :lol: , thanks. Btw, my interpretation is, if you take out the four cylinder engine in your car,(standard props) drop in a V-8,(PV2 props), unplug four spark plug wires................your back to a 4 cyl. (See what I mean, I'm lost)...........hellllllllpp.

 

[ElGuano]

Hi guys, I have a really stupid question (I think). I've been following this thread from the beginning and I like the idea of an "improved" propeller. My question is.........why is it necessary to adjust the gains? Doesn't this tame it down to stock behavior, and if so why the swap? I think I missed something along the way or read too deep, can someone please explain it...in simple terms :lol: , thanks. Btw, my interpretation is, if you take out the four cylinder engine in your car,(standard props) drop in a V-8,(PV2 props), unplug four spark plug wires................your back to a 4 cyl. (See what I mean, I'm lost)...........hellllllllpp.

The best analogy for gains I can come up with is changing how fast your reflexes are. High gains are like very fast reflexes - you respond very quickly to changes, can catch keys being dropped before they hit the ground, but maybe you act before you think and deck someone when they tap you on the shoulder. Get too fast and autonomic and you're twitchy and overreactive. Slow gains are slow reflexes. Movements are smoother and more deliberate, but get slow enough and you can't react fast enough to get out of the way of an approaching car.

Gains are like that for each of the directions your quad travels. High gains react faster and more aggressively to changes, low gains do the opposite. They don't really change the power output at all (if your Phantom is just too heavy to hover, higher vertical gain won't fix that, if you can't hold position in constant wind, higher pitch/roll gain won't overcome it). It's best not to blindly plug in some preset set of gains when you change your props. You have to see how those props effect your Phantom's behavior, and if needed, adjust your gains (it can be either up or down) to optimize that behavior. You may prefer the new props with your old gains, and within a fairly wide range of operation, gains are personal preference. You only really "need" to change your gains if they're out to the point where they introduce dynamic instability during flight, and that could be at different points for different Phantoms.

 

[reALIGNed]

Hi guys, I have a really stupid question (I think). I've been following this thread from the beginning and I like the idea of an "improved" propeller. My question is.........why is it necessary to adjust the gains? Doesn't this tame it down to stock behavior, and if so why the swap? I think I missed something along the way or read too deep, can someone please explain it...in simple terms :lol: , thanks. Btw, my interpretation is, if you take out the four cylinder engine in your car,(standard props) drop in a V-8,(PV2 props), unplug four spark plug wires................your back to a 4 cyl. (See what I mean, I'm lost)...........hellllllllpp.

The best analogy for gains I can come up with is changing how fast your reflexes are. High gains are like very fast reflexes - you respond very quickly to changes, can catch keys being dropped before they hit the ground, but maybe you act before you think and deck someone when they tap you on the shoulder. Get too fast and autonomic and you're twitchy and overreactive. Slow gains are slow reflexes. Movements are smoother and more deliberate, but get slow enough and you can't react fast enough to get out of the way of an approaching car.

Gains are like that for each of the directions your quad travels. High gains react faster and more aggressively to changes, low gains do the opposite. They don't really change the power output at all (if your Phantom is just too heavy to hover, higher vertical gain won't fix that, if you can't hold position in constant wind, higher pitch/roll gain won't overcome it). It's best not to blindly plug in some preset set of gains when you change your props. You have to see how those props effect your Phantom's behavior, and if needed, adjust your gains (it can be either up or down) to optimize that behavior. You may prefer the new props with your old gains, and within a fairly wide range of operation, gains are personal preference. You only really "need" to change your gains if they're out to the point where they introduce dynamic instability during flight, and that could be at different points for different Phantoms.

Nice, thank you. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the three axis gyro thing, I've been flying 3D helicopters for years and know them inside and out, I guess its the multi rotors that's hampering my learning curve, but I'll get it. Thanks again for taking the time.

 

[havasuphoto]

Good information-thanks.
My understanding of gains is; IF, you are in GPS mode, the gain values may be too high or low, to make corrections necessary to hold a stable hover?
I'm understanding that the gains input into the Naza control the automatic behavior, as well as the manual(flight control) behavior....would that be a correct statement?

For example; if I put Vision props on my Phantom 1.2, raise the throttle, and at 1/3rd throttle, and leaps into the air-I need to adjust my vertical down a bit.
IF, I find while not moving the controls, that the aircraft and rolling and pitching too much to maintain position(assume zero wind), I need to turn down the pitch/roll gains?
IF, I find that the aircraft is wagging it's tail UN-necessarliy, than I need to turn down the gain of the yaw axis??

 

[ElGuano]

Good information-thanks.
My understanding of gains is; IF, you are in GPS mode, the gain values may be too high or low, to make corrections necessary to hold a stable hover?

Yes. Hover instability doesn't seem to happen very much on Phantoms though (I think it's the small "wheelbase"), but definitely on bigger quads.

I'm understanding that the gains input into the Naza control the automatic behavior, as well as the manual(flight control) behavior....would that be a correct statement?

Not sure, I don't think manual cares about gains but could be wrong about that. Manual is so raw and twitchy that I haven't bothered testing gains with it.

For example; if I put Vision props on my Phantom 1.2, raise the throttle, and at 1/3rd throttle, and leaps into the air-I need to adjust my vertical down a bit.

No, vertical is a basic gain, it determines how fast the quad corrects for variations in height when hovering on its own; T input isn't affected. I'm not sure if you can adjust the sensitivity of the throttle input (but 3rd party controllers can set different end points on the tx side). Remember, if a Phantom is simply too heavy to hover, high gains will just fail to correct it faster.

IF, I find while not moving the controls, that the aircraft and rolling and pitching too much to maintain position(assume zero wind), I need to turn down the pitch/roll gains?

Depends on how it's rolling and pitching. If it's a high frequency oscillation, very twitchy and jerky, basic gains roll and/or pitch may be too too high - the craft is repeatedly over-aggressive in adjusting position and overshooting, over and over. If it's a slow, drunken oscillation, your gains may be too low, the quad is waiting too long and not doing enough to maintain fixed position.

IF, I find that the aircraft is wagging it's tail UN-necessarliy, than I need to turn down the gain of the yaw axis??

Again, depends on the speed of the wagging. Remember that most yaw wobble isn't gain-induced, it's an attitude correction, and changing the setting only changes the speed of correction. But as with roll/pitch, if your gains are so off that it enters a closed-system oscillation, you can eliminate that by correcting the gain setting.

MOST Phantoms don't need gain adjustments for typical flying on typical components and weights. You can adjust them all you want and you'll probably find it behaves quite well at any setting, and you'll settle on picking a set of values for personal preference (seems some bigger quads/hexes may be much more sensitive to having "correct" gains).The one area where this doesn't hold is descending (and other types of weird super-aggressive flying)--normally well-behaved basic gains may freak out from the oscillations introduced by fast descent and end up flipping the quad...I think we've seen this happen quite a bit recently with larger props. I actually don't even bother adjusting for this use case though, I just make really slow, controlled, dual-vector descents (though I probably should try to see if a certain range corrects for it).

 

[Ton4]

EL, what are your gain settings? We seem to have the same props, although I have T motors. With the cf mine is very nervous, I guess I would need to lower basic gains. With the plastic 9443 it flies much smoother.

 

[dbcch]

Thanks ElGuano, solid and useful information all the way around . And, yep, having the wife fly is nice, it's something we can do together. I tell ya, I've not seen any device generate excitement like this in a long time. Every where I go, people approach me - from young kids to retired couples. Everyone loves the Phantoms .

 

[havasuphoto]

Thanks for that excellent explanation.
I have a Futaba remote-so I have a dual rate switch, where I can flip the switch, and immediately all control responses are around 50% of normal, and full stick is only 90%. So, if I get into too much trouble, and there aircraft gains are too high, I believe that will help me at least land the aircraft.
I also descent on multiple angles-to avoid VRS. So that is something I'll pay particular attention too. As the bigger props produce much more down-wash......

Guess I'll just start with the stock gain settings, and enable Vertical on my X1 knob, set in the middle, and see how it holds attitude in a hover. Should be pretty obvious when I turn the knob, what it's going to do.

 

[ElGuano]

I adjust my gains fairly frequently, but typically I'm on ~150 basic pitch/roll, 180-200 yaw, default vertical. Attitude gains about 80% to smooth out video.

 

[havasuphoto]

I adjust my gains fairly frequently, but typically I'm on ~150 basic pitch/roll, 180-200 yaw, default vertical. Attitude gains about 80% to smooth out video.

Thanks. You're the 2nd person that has put the Yaw values at nearly double the stock settings.
Like I said-I have the X1 channel I can use to tweak mine....just awaiting the "slow donkey" to arrive with my props

 

[ElGuano]

I played with yaw quite a bit. My initial hypothesis was that slower yaws would result in less distracting wobble on a 2-axis gimbal. But I found that I personally noticed it more because the footage is always swaying back and forth. High yaw makes the corrections twitcher, which is easier to eliminate in post and less distracting to me because my brain filters out "shaky JJ Abrams camera" more easily than it does continual swaying movement.

 

[havasuphoto]

Interesting-I would have thought the opposite.
I normally film with the controls reduced 50% and maxed out at full throw of 90%. The yawing is very smooth and controllable.
However, that's in Atti mode...but, I'm assuming that once the initial gains are adjusted-I would use the same gains for both GPS and Atti...keeping in mind that I could always cut them with the flip of a switch.

 

[ElGuano]

Interesting-I would have thought the opposite.
I normally film with the controls reduced 50% and maxed out at full throw of 90%. The yawing is very smooth and controllable.
However, that's in Atti mode...but, I'm assuming that once the initial gains are adjusted-I would use the same gains for both GPS and Atti...keeping in mind that I could always cut them with the flip of a switch.

The yaw is a basic gain, i'm not talking about controlling pan via stick. This is the yaw wobble that the quad automatically does trying to maintain direction, and shouldn't be affected by attitude gains or stick endpoints

 

[havasuphoto]

Interesting-I would have thought the opposite.
I normally film with the controls reduced 50% and maxed out at full throw of 90%. The yawing is very smooth and controllable.
However, that's in Atti mode...but, I'm assuming that once the initial gains are adjusted-I would use the same gains for both GPS and Atti...keeping in mind that I could always cut them with the flip of a switch.

The yaw is a basic gain, i'm not talking about controlling pan via stick. This is the yaw wobble that the quad automatically does trying to maintain direction, and shouldn't be affected by attitude gains or stick endpoints

OK...so basically with low(er) gain settings on the yaw, you felt the dog was wagging it's tail?

 

[havasuphoto]

Just received my "Vision" props in the mail. An observation/question; they're very, very thin. About half the thickness at the edges than a stock prop. Is this normal? They almost seem too thin......just wondering what those with Genuine Vision Props, have for thickness at the ends?? They seem very bendy......