P4 camera not as sharp as I was hoping

To understand video, you should really understand stills first.

If you don't know how to play off of aperture, ISO, and shutter speed, you are behind the 8 ball when it comes to video.

Watch this video on the three and how they play off of each other and then I will suggest some more stuff for you as it pertains to video. Should be noted that on the P4, we do not have control of our iris (aperature/f/stop), it is frozen at an average f/2.8 (don't know what an f-stop is EXACTLY? Learn). Here ya go.

Yeah, I was leaning that this was the case. Far too many reports of poor quality. I was hoping that this was more of a point-and-shoot system. I'll brush-up on my photo-fu and give it another whirl.
 
There is a difference. The issue is that when flying very slowly over row of bushes, the resultant video is just a mashed up blur of green foliage which lacks detail.


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What shutter speed are you shooting at? If your lens is stopped way down and/or u are using an nd filter than your shutter speed will be quite low, resulting in less clarity due to movement of subject matter relative to the camera. Could be why corn/bushes look blurred.

Highest f stop/smallest lens opening) fastest shutter speed result in best optical clarify. Obviously lighting has to be correct. Raising ISO too high will result in less image quality.
 
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Did not notice that f stop was not adjustable. Definitely can change shutter speed. No iris in little cameras I guess. To have an adjustable f-stop (iris). Would require a moving part, whereas GoPro type cameras etc are all electronic, no moving parts to fail, less weight, less complexity.

His lens could be out of focus, relative to focal plane. Happens on gopro. Could see same issue on p4 camera. They are usually focused at the factory, then superglued at proper focus. I've refocused a number of go pros but wouldn't mess w P4 camera focus.

Easy to check. Would need another p4 w sharp image and same test subject. I test on box of cereal. Lots of different sized fonts, different colors etc. if it is visibly worse would exchange for different p4 or send in for service.
 
I'd be mad if I was a hillbilly meth brewer and you took a picture of my house like you have done. Ur lucky he didn't shoot ur p4 out of the sky!

Good call man. A meth head did used to live here. I do now. Not everyone is as fortunate as others. Hard knock life. You don't want none.
 
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Being a noob this explained a lot and will - perhaps - help out others into the mysteries of the camera settings.

Phantom 4 Camera settings explained

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=my2cFiPKvao
If you want good info, I was forced to pick apart that video. It's boring as it covers formats and resolutions but everything he says in that video is wrong.

 
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Jussaguy.....I appreciate your tips on exposure, but there are obviously some unhappy campers, too many to just be a " how to operate your camera properly" issue. There is obviously an issue wth the release of these drones and operators of previous drones can see a clear flaw in the video capture capability of these drones. Not to flap my lips too much but I work as a cameraman and editor for a tv show. Other cameraman and editors have reviewed footage captured by these drones and it's quite poor in quality. Poor enough to cancel orders for additional acquisitions of extra drones for work. The craft is an exceptional performer from an aviation standpoint but lacks any form of professional use in the real world. The P4 is merely a hobby toy and a regretful purchase for our business.


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Umm. The entire craft cost less than any decent DLSR glass. Much less. And lets not talk about cinema quality lenses.

So, for $1700 ($900 in the case of the near photographically identical P3P) you get - well, it's what you get. A toy. A pretty impressive toy, but certainly not pro quality. You can get nice images, sometimes even professional quality images but you do not have the capture speed, bit depth, sensor size and especially decent optics of even an Inspire. What you get is the ability to take pictures where you could never photograph before. And if you are only going to show the images on the Internet, they're perfectly fine. For Imax, not so much.
 
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Guys, maybe this is related to bitrate, no?
If you shoot in full HD you get 60Mbps. If you shoot in 4k, which is 4 times more pixels, you get the same 60Mbps bitrate. That might mean that you actually is getting worse quality when using 4k, leading to lots of compression when too many pixels are changing (the case in trees, water etc).
Try to zero out all the "camera improvements" and adjusts and film it in full HD to see if the same problem happens. A tip: if you want top quality, use vimeo instead of YouTube due to compression rates.

edit: I found a video that shows exactly what I think is going on:

Vitor Damiani
 
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To understand video, you should really understand stills first.

If you don't know how to play off of aperture, ISO, and shutter speed, you are behind the 8 ball when it comes to video.

Watch this video on the three and how they play off of each other and then I will suggest some more stuff for you as it pertains to video. Should be noted that on the P4, we do not have control of our iris (aperature/f/stop), it is frozen at an average f/2.8 (don't know what an f-stop is EXACTLY? Learn). Here ya go.


Watching this video jarred my memory off all the things I had forgotten from high-school photography class. I HIGHLY encourage that people watch it.

Anyhow, I shot some video today in manual mode. conditions were overcast. 4K @ 30fps with shutter at 1/800 and ISO 800 gave marginal motion blur improvement at the cost of increased noise and jitter. Increasing the shutter to 1/2000 with ISO 1600 produced far too much noise and jitter for me to make any conclusion at this setting. It is unfortunate that the P4 camera does not have an f-stop control.

I then stumbled on this video and everything seemed to make a TON of sense. As someone stated previous, perhaps it's just a cheap camera. I wish I had a P3P camera to compare it against. I'm a little disappointed.

 
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To aaronrovera, et al: it's probably something called rolling shutter, but just s guess without seeing a sample. You need to slow down your shutter speed, and the way to do that is with ND filters (Polar Pro has a good set). Try going to You Tube and searching for ND filters with P3P, this has all been covered with the P3P. Especially if you're new to photo & Drones, you need to learn about that.
 
Watching this video jarred my memory off all the things I had forgotten from high-school photography class. I HIGHLY encourage that people watch it.

Anyhow, I shot some video today in manual mode. conditions were overcast. 4K @ 30fps with shutter at 1/800 and ISO 800 gave marginal motion blur improvement at the cost of increased noise and jitter. Increasing the shutter to 1/2000 with ISO 1600 produced far too much noise and jitter for me to make any conclusion at this setting. It is unfortunate that the P4 camera does not have an f-stop control.

I then stumbled on this video and everything seemed to make a TON of sense. As someone stated previous, perhaps it's just a cheap camera. I wish I had a P3P camera to compare it against. I'm a little disappointed.

Awesome! You're one of the first people that seem to care as much about the camera as the bird that I've found around here. Watch my video on the formats, and PM me if you want to discuss over phone.

Anyhow, the camera on this and even the Inspire, unless you have the pro is maybe a little better than an iPhone camera which isn't bad by the way.

To have control of the f-stop functionality, you're gonna need to step up from this. The cam is essentially the same as the P3P, I think exactly the same but they added some tweaks in the firmware which you could have done with the P3P manually but you can get better images with the P4 without much work than you could with the P3P or even the X3.

If you want a full DSLR then you need to step up to a S1000, Tornado or build a hex or octo but you're gonna need more power to lift a heavy cam. I'll be interested to see which manufacturer takes advantage of the Red Mini which shoots unreal looking Raw 4K and gives you every bit of manual control and SICK contrast with ISO so high it's redic and stop range from 1-22 I believe.

I'm getting absolutely beautiful imagery night and day with the Phantoms though for video and photo.

I'm gonna post a tutorial with my workflow as to remove one level of generation loss. Anything you see on YouTube of any Phantom without using the method I will post has a minimum of 3 generation losses and people that think "it's digital, I can copy it as many times as I want" sometimes have up to 3-6 generation losses which with h264 which is what the Phantoms spit out in mov and MP4 do not have ANY room for compression. One generation loss is fairly significant and the only way to export other than right out of the bird.

The images that you copy to your hard drive from the sd card is the best that that image will ever look (not counting color correction and stuff of course).

I'm gonna make a vid on it soon. Have been planning on it. I'll have the Typhoon H pretty soon too and I'm gonna do a review and a "set up along with me" video within a week or two.
 
Guys,

I think shutter speed has nothing to do here with the artifacts we are seeing. Notice, how it becomes blurry in the video when there are a lot of details in the frame and they are moving - either camera is panning or tree branches are waving in the wind. This IMHO is the mpeg compression artifacts. I've seen it in P2V+ camera, in 2-3 years old phone cameras etc. Thoughts?

Edit: googled "phantom 3 mpeg artifacts"
Second link to: Tips

Quote:
  • COMPRESSION and GRASS: The video we get from our Phantoms is compressed (with the h.264 codec). So we should be aware that certain things could cause some ugly artifacts. Again, fast movement or panning or tilting the gimbal up and down (fast) can cause blockyness and artifacts in the video stream. The Phantom 3 Pro and DJI Phantom 4 can record 4K records at 60 megabits per second - which is good, but in the world of professional digital video, it is a bit low. So we have to work with that. Filming grass, tall grass, large areas of similar color but with a bunch of tiny detail is worst case for the P3 & 4-camera. So we should be aware of this, and plan accordingly. When we film that sort of thing, it yet again helps to slow down use use smooth movement. Don't pan a lot (only very slowly) or you risk the image 'collapsing' into a green mushy mess of blockyness. We would like to avoid this so be careful if that sort of imagery fills up a large part of the frame.
 
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These threads are a terrible mess of misinformation, tangents, and random opinions.

Whoever posted about the D-Log issues stemming from firmware updates (too lazy to go back and quote), is the most relevant/useful. Although whoever said they had identical issues to the thread-starter, then returned their P4 and got another, and resolution was improved on the replacement, should follow up with sample comparison video and confirm it was shot in D-log.

Every image quality thread on this forum has someone chiming in about 'what did you expect, it's not a professional tool, you should just be happy with your toy.' A) That's ridiculous. B) That misses the point, we're talking about consistency, and non-price-point related issues. We've owned and used P3 models extensively, and know what the camera should be capable of capturing.

I have another thread from a month ago about the same issue, when I thought I just had a lemon. DJI finally got back to me two days ago (after about a 5 week wait) with a RMA number to exchange it, but I'm not sure a replacement would help. It does seem to be isolated to shooting in D-log. Mushy-pastel patches without detail and lots of noise.

I've been shooting in Color mode 'None', with sharpness +1, contrast -3, and that allows a decent base to then color grade, and it's actually sharp and comparable to my P3P footage (that I loved).

So I know the camera can capture sharper details... but D-log is just messed up. I'll wait for a firmware update. ** and yes, I understand D-log is generally supposed to more neutral/softer, for post process sharpening, you can save your comment, that's not what we're talking about... it's worse than that **
 
Guys,

I think shutter speed has nothing to do here with the artifacts we are seeing. Notice, how it becomes blurry in the video when there are a lot of details in the frame and they are moving - either camera is panning or tree branches are waving in the wind. This IMHO is the mpeg compression artifacts. I've seen it in P2V+ camera, in 2-3 years old phone cameras etc. Thoughts?

Edit: googled "phantom 3 mpeg artifacts"
Second link to: Tips

Quote:
  • COMPRESSION and GRASS: The video we get from our Phantoms is compressed (with the h.264 codec). So we should be aware that certain things could cause some ugly artifacts. Again, fast movement or panning or tilting the gimbal up and down (fast) can cause blockyness and artifacts in the video stream. The Phantom 3 Pro and DJI Phantom 4 can record 4K records at 60 megabits per second - which is good, but in the world of professional digital video, it is a bit low. So we have to work with that. Filming grass, tall grass, large areas of similar color but with a bunch of tiny detail is worst case for the P3 & 4-camera. So we should be aware of this, and plan accordingly. When we film that sort of thing, it yet again helps to slow down use use smooth movement. Don't pan a lot (only very slowly) or you risk the image 'collapsing' into a green mushy mess of blockyness. We would like to avoid this so be careful if that sort of imagery fills up a large part of the frame.
Correct on almost all points but the original footage softened using the style functionality, depending on other variables if set right can offset some of the artifacts caused by the h264 AVC MPEG compression.

I am going to post a video in the next couple days that will show the best workflow for purposes of minimizing the artifacts and not adding to them as you edit and export and send to YouTube or Vimeo or whatever.

Like if you're using the X5, you get a master deliverable with which you can make a million slaves to your hearts content but with the x3 or whatever is on our Phantom 4 or 3, you have to do extra things to keep the quality.

Tutorial to follow. I am doing my best to make DJI tutorials as boring as possible. ;)


Edit***: I remember it's you with that problem of blur using d-log. Please understand while this may definitely be happening, it's not the D-log setting itself that's causing it. It might be triggering the issue but in and of itself, the color profile has LITERALLY NOTHING to do with focus or blur. It might show things more or less but not cause them. Dig?
 
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** and yes, I understand D-log is generally supposed to more neutral/softer, for post process sharpening, you can save your comment, that's not what we're talking about... it's worse than that **
This is untrue.

First, D-Log only deals with color and has literally NOTHING to do with video sharpness or softness.

It actually deals with Gamma which is essentially the range between 0 and 1. To wit, 0 is completely black and 1 is completely white. I won't go in to super detail on this here because I don't want all the "TLDR" comments but D-log adds no brilliant colors but rather gives you the most flat color possible with the greatnest amount of gamma (contrast) the units between 0 and 1. .(for example .5 is a perfect grey). So let's say you had a gamma range of 0, .5, and 1...your dynamic range on contrast will be nothing but when you have all the fractions between it available to you in your editor because you shot in d-log, you are in greater control and therefore are more able to be the designer of your image.

For some, yes, it's better to be in auto and vivid or something but if you are, for example, wanting a sophisticated stylized look like a bleach bypass or something, you need variables that are changeable.

The D-log color option in the Go-App probably wouldn't even be available to Phantom users if it wasn't for the Inspire using the same app. DJI does a good job of not canabolizing their products and the D-log setting is a professional one in a consumer camera.

Didn't mean to go on a diatribe about this but yeah, D-log is not affecting any bluriness. It might show some more but that's just because of the color.

If this is the thread where someone was having a focus issue in D-log, that might be, but it's not because of the actual setting but it might be triggering something else bad in that unit or others. My P4s are shooting d-log just fine.

Other issues, different story.
 
I know it's not the answer for stills, but watch this vid about turning off 3d noise reduction for video during the day. Someone else commented it's good to have on at night but turn it off during the day.

Yeah, I don't know why they default to the noise reduction on. It's not even good at night as most editors have better tools to get rid of the noise. Have you ever taken a DNG still into something like LightRoom and it just disappears? This setting is similar but for video. Would you rather the Phantom and it's puny computer capability doing your post work or your powerful machine?
 
This is untrue.

First, D-Log only deals with color and has literally NOTHING to do with video sharpness or softness.

It actually deals with Gamma which is essentially the range between 0 and 1. To wit, 0 is completely black and 1 is completely white. I won't go in to super detail on this here because I don't want all the "TLDR" comments but D-log adds no brilliant colors but rather gives you the most flat color possible with the greatnest amount of gamma (contrast) the units between 0 and 1. .(for example .5 is a perfect grey). So let's say you had a gamma range of 0, .5, and 1...your dynamic range on contrast will be nothing but when you have all the fractions between it available to you in your editor because you shot in d-log, you are in greater control and therefore are more able to be the designer of your image.

For some, yes, it's better to be in auto and vivid or something but if you are, for example, wanting a sophisticated stylized look like a bleach bypass or something, you need variables that are changeable.

The D-log color option in the Go-App probably wouldn't even be available to Phantom users if it wasn't for the Inspire using the same app. DJI does a good job of not canabolizing their products and the D-log setting is a professional one in a consumer camera.

Didn't mean to go on a diatribe about this but yeah, D-log is not affecting any bluriness. It might show some more but that's just because of the color.

If this is the thread where someone was having a focus issue in D-log, that might be, but it's not because of the actual setting but it might be triggering something else bad in that unit or others. My P4s are shooting d-log just fine.

Other issues, different story.
I've never had a DJI product in which Dlog mode didn't affect sharpening. It might simply be the absence of any stylized color mode default sharpening, so not really 'purposefully softer', but the end result is the same. With color mode to standard and sharpness at 0, you're telling me the sharpness is identical to Dlog mode with sharpness at 0? I grade everything I shoot, and I can't speak to your specific copies of drones or footage, but on mine (ranging from P2's to current P4) is always like that. It's like looking at a DSLR raw file versus a jpeg-saved parameter, of course it's softer.

If you're getting nice clarity and sharpness on your P4 with Dlog, maybe DJI is just putting out a ton of copies with issues... because mine is ****, and looks like the sample vid further up this thread. Completely un-usable (and un-sharpenable).

Could you post a sample from yours, with full setting specs, no processing?
 
I've never had a DJI product in which Dlog mode didn't affect sharpening. It might simply be the absence of any stylized color mode default sharpening, so not really 'purposefully softer', but the end result is the same. With color mode to standard and sharpness at 0, you're telling me the sharpness is identical to Dlog mode with sharpness at 0? I grade everything I shoot, and I can't speak to your specific copies of drones or footage, but on mine (ranging from P2's to current P4) is always like that. It's like looking at a DSLR raw file versus a jpeg-saved parameter, of course it's softer.

If you're getting nice clarity and sharpness on your P4 with Dlog, maybe DJI is just putting out a ton of copies with issues... because mine is ****, and looks like the sample vid further up this thread. Completely un-usable (and un-sharpenable).

Could you post a sample from yours, with full setting specs, no processing?
I already did that. edit: *** this turned into a lesson on color space and contrast. Sorry, but it was initially directed at your question.

But either way, trust me, the color settings have nothing AT ALL to do with sharpness. In your case where you are getting that horrible blur, something is happening which again might be triggered by going to the d-log color space but it in theory should do nothing to the blur.

It might pronounce it more because it's flat but you CANT CHANGE the softness or the sharpness using color.

D-log put simply is a better version of cinema-style. It gives you more dynamic range through gamma.

Think of it like this.

In color we are dealing with hue, saturation and lightness (HSL commonly referred) and there are a bunch of ways to augment these things.

Hue is basically the area on the wheel where you rest. Color is a range and nothing more which is why we white balance. Think of white balance as a compass for color where white is north (on a white balance) so it tells you what everything else should be.

Lightness - brightness level, etc. obvious but much more in depth than what I am writing here.

Safuration - this was once hard for me to define but when I was an instructor teaching these things, I had to learn a method to explain it and I came up with "volume of color". If you turned down the situation to 0, you will have black and white, if you crank it up, you get overblown redonculus colors.

Gamma is the X factor in D-log as it gives you the most dynamic range of contrast (and anyone that knows photography and film/videography knows how important contrast and therefore gamma is).

I know this isn't answering your direct question but I thought a thorough explanation of what is happening in the color space settings which has literally no effect on sharpness or blur (on its face) not what it might show would help you. And furthermore, you may have an issue.

I forgot that, if I remember correctly, you are a pro so forgive me if I am spewing a bunch of photography 101, actually more like 103 info at you but it's for everyone too.

Most won't read this but a couple that care about what these settings are and do might read it and possibly absorb it. It's actually a lot of second nature to some but a lot to grasp and fully understand how not only everything works, but how they work TOGETHER.

Film/video/photography is a push and pull game. If you boost something, you need to pull back something else.

Using RGB color space this is how you define every single pixel.

Every single pixel in a 4K image for example has 4 numbers associated with it R(ed) level 1-155 G(reen) level 1-155 and B(lue) 1-155 (a combination of all these primary colors mixed together should in theory provide every color in the universe), and there can also be an A (RGBA) which is your alpha channel which is a number between 1 and 0 that defines your transparency (not to be confused with the 1 and 0 of gamma). The A in an RGBA image is multiplied which is why files with an embedded alpha is so large. 0 is completely off (keyed out for example) and 1 is completely opaque (completely visible) so .5 would be like a see through Item. So 87,12,90 with an alpha channel of .75 could define one single pixel and every other pixel on the screen also has its own definition and what we strive for is to get it exactly how we want and it can be tricky without knowing this info and then how to manipulate it.

Furthermore, you can see how none of these variables will affect focus. Not at all, not one bit.

There are a few ways to affect focus and they are changing focus, objects going in and out of your focal distance and leaving your plane of focus which is almost always infinite with aerial photography. We strive for sharpness rather than a more cinematic motion blurred image which may very well be the desire in which case with the Phantom your options are limited but they include things like the settings where you can change the level of blur or sharp. Then of course in post.

So anyway, I hope I've convinced you that there is nothing inherent in the d-log setting that I could imagine affecting focus other than some sort of hardware issue.
 
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