Operating for Free? P3S

[TheTanger]

Ya...I just think the rub is the fact that to the IRS, people CAN make MONEY from their hobby but in the case of using a drone for your "hobby" people are getting threatened for even GIVING their images away. That's not cool.

 

[JKDSensei]

You can take all the pictures you want. Selling them commercially or making or attempting to make money with them is what the Feds have heartburn about.

 

[TheTanger]

Google maps images seem to be used everywhere without an issue...aerial photographs.

 

[dirkclod]

Google maps images seem to be used everywhere without an issue...aerial photographs.

Street view can get ya, got me pushing a wheel barrow in my front yard

 

[Meta4]

Google maps images seem to be used everywhere without an issue...aerial photographs.

The FAA has no problem with aerial photography.
That's not their issue.
They are happy to let you photograph to your heart's content ... (recreationally).
They have an issue with commercial flying.
Because they only know how to deal with airplanes they think everything they deal with is an airplane.
They know that a higher standard is required when commercially flying a real plane so in their mind commercial aerial photography with a tot drone will also require a higher standard.
It makes perfect sense to them.

 

[TheTanger]

The FAA has no problem with aerial photography.
That's not their issue.
They are happy to let you photograph to your heart's content ... (recreationally).
They have an issue with commercial flying.
Because they only know how to deal with airplanes they think everything they deal with is an airplane.
They know that a higher standard is required when commercially flying a real plane so in their mind commercial aerial photography with a tot drone will also require a higher standard.
It makes perfect sense to them.

LOL...I'm afraid you're probably correct. I think this thread veered at one point into (and I think the FAA has this policy), hobbyist/recreational flyers who have registered with the FAA not being allowed to even GIVE away their aerial footage to organizations (schools, scouts, etc.) who wanted some images. There is no way any rational person can misconstrue that as being commercial in any way, yet many posters on here are warning people not to do that, or that they could do it only while looking over their shoulder. I just think that's wrong is all.

Any creation of mine (work) would still be copyrighted by me and I could still SELL my photography/video under the IRS "hobby" rules. I could also DEDUCT my expenses (craft, batteries, mods, memory cards, etc.) up to the full amount I MADE in a year. SO, the IRS defines HOBBY income as a type of income that is DIFFERENT from doing it as a business.

To summarize, we have the FAA saying you need a 333 to "sell" or do things "commercially" even though the IRS says people can make income off their hobby.

To say therefore that users who fly as a hobby CANNOT even GIVE away (much less sell) any imagery/video does not make sense. So there you have it...no wonder people are upset and confused.

 

[Meta4]

hobbyist/recreational flyers who have registered with the FAA not being allowed to even GIVE away their aerial footage to organizations (schools, scouts, etc.) who wanted some images. There is no way any rational person can misconstrue that as being commercial in any way, yet many posters on here are warning people not to do that, or that they could do it only while looking over their shoulder.

You can give away images or video without worry. Even the FAA isn't that stupid.
The FAA has a broad definition of commercial use but there are members here with strict fundamentalist interpretations that go further than the FAA does.
And the hypothetical scenario in the initial pose is extremely unlikely to ever upset the FAA.

To summarize, we have the FAA saying you need a 333 to "sell" or do things "commercially" even though the IRS says people can make income off their hobby.

That's not unusual. You could have a sideline as a hitman for the mob and the IRS wouldn't mind as long as you pay the proper taxes.
How you earn the $$ isn't their concern - that's for another department altogether.

 

[mactech]

I had a ham radio business that was declared a hobby by the IRS back in the 90s. I lost money every year and tried to use it to offset the income from my profitable business which is a software company that still is my main source of income.

If I take some pictures of a friend's wedding and collect $100 for doing that, it's a hobbyist income and not my profession and therefor is not commercialized. This is mentioned in the FAA regulations


https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N_8900.292.pdf

from that

1. Note: Electronic media posted on a video Web site does not automatically constitute a commercial operation or commercial purpose, or other non-hobby or non-recreational use.
   

 

[msinger]

If I take some pictures of a friend's wedding and collect $100 for doing that, it's a hobbyist income and not my profession and therefor is not commercialized.

There is no such thing as a "hobbyist income". If you're collecting money, it's a commercial operation. If you decide to do it for free instead, then it would certainly be perceived as a hobby activity.

 

[mactech]

There is no such thing as a "hobbyist income". If you're collecting money, it's a commercial operation. If you decide to do it for free instead, then it would certainly be perceived as a hobby activity.

Sorry but you are wrong.

Well, I have a lot of paperwork that shows that this is not true when they audited me.

Here is a link that shows that even the IRS uses this term ' hobby income '

Five Basic Tax Tips about Hobbies

Limits on Hobby Expenses. Generally, you can only deduct your hobby expenses up to the amount of hobby income. If your hobby expenses are more than your hobby income, you have a loss from the activity. You can’t deduct the loss from your other income.

 

[msinger]

Here is a link that shows that even the IRS uses this term ' hobby income

I'm lost. What does the IRS and their use of the term "hobby income" have to do with the requirement to obtain a 333 exemption from the FAA in order to collect money when flying a Phantom?

 

[mactech]

I'm lost. What does the IRS and their use of the term "hobby income" have to do with the requirement to obtain a 333 exemption from the FAA in order to collect money when flying a Phantom?

I am not talking about 333 exemption.

You stated there is no such thing as hobby income. I showed you where the IRS says otherwise.

 

[mactech]

If someone has a 333 exemption, you can bet they are in the business, as in making a profit and it is probably their main source of income.

The FAA cannot make up their own definition of a hobby when the IRS has already done so.

You can make money in a hobby. My mom breeds german shepherds and brings in considerable income, along with considerable risk and expense. The IRS has given her hobby status for their breeding hobby/business.

 

[msinger]

Well, unfortunately, it doesn't matter what the IRS defines as a hobby. When you fly your Phantom (or any other aircraft) and collect money, the FAA considers that to be a commercial operation.

 

[BigAl07]

Like it or not the FAA does not use the IRS as their source of information or definition.

To take the hobby vs commercial thing one step further... The ONLY reason why the FAA doesn't try to regulate and control the hobby aspect more is because Congress stepped in (with the help from pressure from the AMA) and pretty much made new rules for "Hobby" flights off limits. This only leaves "commercial" operations under the control/regulation/over-reach of the FAA. You can bet your bottom dollar that if the "Hobby" stipulation had not gone into place a few years back UAS flying as we know it today would be VERY different if at all by this point.

It's not that the FAA see's hobby flying more/less safe or any different than commercial (except commercial is held to a higher standard across the board) but that they can't do much about hobby flights YET! With enough worry/panic/heat from John Q. Public about safety/privacy concerns I'm confident that the US Congress will make some modifications and allow the FAA full access to "hobby" flights. When that happens it won't matter how much we petition, argue, cry, yell, pout we will be over-regulated and heavily fined.

 

[mactech]

Well, unfortunately, it doesn't matter what the IRS defines as a hobby. When you fly your Phantom (or any other aircraft) and collect money, the FAA considers that to be a commercial operation.

I am not a lawyer but my lawyer that I use for my business tells me otherwise. What I do know is what a hobby is by experience ( IRS audit) and the definition giving by the IRS to which I linked to above.

It's not hard to see that should this claim be made by the FAA, and you're not engaged in the business of ariel photography and don't make your living doing this, it's a hobby, despite what you or the FAA might claim. My lawyer said this would not even make it to court. I am in the software business, not commercial photography. The page I linked to above from the FAA

The FAA does not discern what is and what isn't a business and you cannot have one definition as a hobby for the FAA and another for the IRS.

If photography IS your business, then you're going to be screwed.

 

[msinger]

My lawyer said this would not even make it to court.

Since you'd be breaking a US law, it could easily make it to court if the FAA wanted to come after you.

I'm not a lawyer either, but I think you should find another lawyer

 

[mactech]

Since you'd be breaking a US law, it could easily make it to court if the FAA wanted to come after you.

I'm not a lawyer either, but I think you should find another lawyer

He's pretty good and saved my *** many times from trouble with the law. I will stick to his advice and not worry about the pictures I take as I AM not breaking any laws and do not charge anyone money for pictures, never have and never will.

I am merely pointing out how F'd up this is with the FAA making it's own laws, which they cannot enforce and the duplicity of it all.

 

[mactech]

Which law am I breaking on the page you linked to?

 

[msinger]

I am merely pointing out how F'd up this is with the FAA making it's own laws

You're preaching to the choir on that one