Welcome to PhantomPilots.com

Sign up for a weekly email of the latest drone news & information

Professional Is it possible to deactivate Kill switch?

Discussion in 'Phantom 3 Help' started by Joshua Carillo, Apr 8, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Joshua Carillo

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2016
    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    6
    Hi Ya,

    I did a quick research about deactivating the Kill switch to prevent friends with no experience giving Kill switch command accidentally and then damaging my bird. Is it possible to deactivate Kill switch for an specific moment?

    Cheers
     
    #1 Joshua Carillo, Apr 8, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2016
  2. msinger

    Approved Vendor

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2014
    Messages:
    19,079
    Likes Received:
    5,619
    Location:
    US
    No. But, you could temporarily attach a CSC Safety.
     
    Joshua Carillo likes this.
  3. Joshua Carillo

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2016
    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    6
    Thanks for the CSC safety link!

    I didn't know about it, but honestly i think they could add a software option for it so it would be much better than having to add/carry an extra device to do the same job.
     
  4. msinger

    Approved Vendor

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2014
    Messages:
    19,079
    Likes Received:
    5,619
    Location:
    US
    Right, but it's not likely that an option will be added.
     
  5. Meta4

    Meta4 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    7,759
    Likes Received:
    3,469
    It's called CSC and if your friends are flying in a way that they could accidentally activate CSC, they are flying in a way that could well crash your Phantom anyway.
    Before you let them fly your machine give them a briefing and make sure that they don't fly it like a crazy chimp.
    [​IMG]
     
    Jack1926 and konidair like this.
  6. Joshua Carillo

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2016
    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    6
    A briefing doesn't guarantee someone who doesn't have enough experience in flying will not activate the kill switch acidentally. That wouldn't give me peace in mind as this lock device would.

    Nice pic though.
     
    Jack1926 likes this.
  7. Meta4

    Meta4 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    7,759
    Likes Received:
    3,469
    It's not the kill switch - it's CSC and if you would allow someone to fly in a way that would make accidental CSC possible, they are flying like a crazy chimp and likely to crash your Phantom anyway.
     
  8. Tenly

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2016
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    218
    Kill switch seems like a reasonable slang term for the CSC Motor shut off that the OP wants to discuss.

    Regardless of an individual pilots skill level - I don't see why the feature is implemented in the way that it is - a way that makes it possible to accidentally kill your motors.

    There are plenty of buttons and controls on the remote and there are many combinations possible that don't involve the 2 controls that you are meant to maneuver constantly while in flight.

    I see the need to have a kill switch available for safety reasons - but I think the CSC "down and in" or "down and out" sequences were poorly chosen. Even if they kept the sequences as they are now, they could add a confirmation process to confirm it was an intended action by requiring (for example) the pilot to tap the power button once after triggering the CSC stop.
     
    firestars likes this.
  9. Meta4

    Meta4 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    7,759
    Likes Received:
    3,469
    A search for CSC will find a hundred other threads saying much the same thing.
    Every week new pilots find out about CSC and are convinced that it is crazy and DJI have heard this thousands of times.
    But the fact is that accidental CSC is not something that will occur in normal flight and putting additional complications and delays in the procedure is not needed and is not a good idea on an emergency stop feature which is what CSC is.
     
    Myetkt likes this.
  10. msinger

    Approved Vendor

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2014
    Messages:
    19,079
    Likes Received:
    5,619
    Location:
    US
    I think if we were able to survey pilots, we would find more people who accidentally initiated CSC than those who had to do it on purpose mid-flight in an emergency.
     
    LamboH and Joshua Carillo like this.
  11. Meta4

    Meta4 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    7,759
    Likes Received:
    3,469
    CSC for mid-flight in an emergency would be extremely rare if it ever happens at all.
    The commonly suggested scenario of using CSC to stop a phantom from crashing into a baby in a pram is fanciful nonsense.
    If the Phantom would respond to CSC it would also respond to the other controls so there would be no need to CSC.
    And if the Phantom isn't responding to controls, it won't respond to CSC.

    But when a phantom crashes on the ground or up in a tree and with spinning props and you have a pet or person close by or you need to stop the props so you can safely pick it up, that's when you need CSC.
    Many of the injuries in this thread would have been prevented if CSC was used: Quadcopters: Be Safe!! - RC Groups
     
    GadgetGuy likes this.
  12. Joshua Carillo

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2016
    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    6
    That's a good point!

    I also think the way CSC (Combination Sticks Command) also known as Kill Switch is activated was poorly chosen! There would have many other possible ways to do it, preventing the Pilot to activate it so easily whilst maneuvering using both sticks.
     
  13. Tenly

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2016
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    218
    I'd be curious how many warranty claims for unexplained crashes were denied by DJI for a reason of "Pilot Error - user initiated CSC". I read one here last week and I doubt that it's the only time it ever happened.

    Nobody is saying that the feature should go away completely. They should just put a little more thought into how to trigger it. The fact that it "should" never be triggered accidentally during normal flight is of little solace to those who have experienced a crash because of it. And I for one don't think that it's appropriate to say that the users get what they deserve for being a pad pilot.

    If there is another key sequence that can be activated just as easily (or easier) and has LESS risk of being accidentally triggered - it's almost irresponsible of DJI to NOT do it. It could be as simple as a user preference thing. Users can already select a mode for their stick controls - why not allow them to choose from one of 2 or 3 different sequences for CSC?

    The alternative today - for users who know about the CSC and don't want to live with the risk it presents - is for them to disable it completely by purchasing a hardware add-on that attaches to their remote and makes it physically impossible to put the sticks in the CSC position. To me, that seems a lot more undesirable than tapping the power button to confirm intent. A quick tap on the power button would take the tiniest fraction of a second to do. How long would it take a user to remove the plastic accessory that makes CSC impossible ?

    Ignoring my personal suggestion of a "confirm" action. I just don't see how DJI or anybody else can argue against examining or considering ways to improve the process for all users. They look at ways to improve everything else about the product. Why should CSC be off the table - especially since DJI has quantifiable proof that at least "some" users have been negatively impacted by the feature in its current state!!!
     
  14. Meta4

    Meta4 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    7,759
    Likes Received:
    3,469
    Accidental CSC is very rare and hardly ever gets reported.
    Here's confirmation from a DJI person: DJI Forum|Change CSC Procedure

    Despite the hysteria, accidental CSC really isn't anything to worry about.
    It just doesn't happen in normal flight.
    If this thread goes they way they usually do, I'd expect lots of scared newbies (but very few experienced pilots) to weigh in with opinions on how crazy the CSC feature is.
    I'm tired of responding to this every week or so.
    Search the forum for CSC and see what's been said a hundred times already.
     
    Myetkt likes this.
  15. Tenly

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2016
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    218
    This isn't my thread - but it does give me the opportunity to speak my piece even if it has been said before. In my opinion though, it hasn't been said wel enough or often enough since the emergency motor stop sequence hasn't been changed.

    I'll use this thread to add my voice and my points and hopefully, like you - DJI will get tired of responding (or at lease seeing) this every week of so and perhaps finally decide to take another look at it to see if maybe there is a better way.

    Personally - I don't agree that if something is "good enough", it shouldn't be improved upon. If there is an opportunity to make something "better" then it should be seriously considered. At one time, Blackberry thought they had a product that was "good enough" and stopped improving/innovating it and we all know what ended up happening to them.

    So, I don't care if there are only 2 people per year out of 100,000 that crash their Phantoms by accidentally triggering a CSC shutdown. The question should be asked: "Is there a way to prevent those 2 crashes from occurring while at the same time either maintaining or improving the ability to kill the motors quickly when necessary?"

    And if the answer is "No. It's not possible" - then that's fine. But if it *is* possible to improve things, then they should improve them. It may mean 2 less drones sold per year - which is not a big deal one way or the other for DJI - but for those 2 owners, it may be a very big deal!

    The only arguments I've heard for not doing this is "it's not necessary" and "during normal flight, an accidental CSC would never happen". And the existence of all the other threads you mention and all of comments similar to mine prove that there are a number of customers who are nervous about the way things work today. So even if you're right - and we wouldn't accidentally trigger the shutdown - there are a bunch of us who would be less nervous and happier customers if DJI showed that they listen to our concerns and that they care - by improving the CSC process.

    I don't know about everyone else - but here's the scenario I'm worried about: I'm flying in the middle of nowhere one afternoon and my 10-year old son is with me. He sees how much fun I'm having flying around and asks if he can try. There are no people or buildings around - and I'm up around 400 feet so I decide to let him try. I'm standing right there with him - so if he gets into any trouble - like too close to the trees or too far away so that we almost lose sight of it - I can step in and take over the controls to recover from his mistakes - but let's say the drones orientation is backwards - it's pointing towards us and now left is right and right is left. The drones not responding to how my son thinks it should and he panics - pushing the sticks all over the place. Just as i try to step in - he accidentally hits on the CSC sequence and the bird drops from the sky. Now I'm on the hook for a repair or replace fee because DJI insists on using the sticks for that feature and are not willing to look for a safer combination.

    So what should I do to avoid/protect myself from the above?
    - purchase the CSC locks?
    - not take my son out with me?

    Why do the people who are not affected by this potential problem seem to be so dead set against DJI even looking into the possibility of something better? - - and possibly providing us all with a solution/improved mechanism. so that we can feel protected ALL the time instead of just most of the time? How does it affect you if they add a mode in which I can change my emergency stop process to use different buttons? You said you're getting tired of replying to these concerns every week. But why reply at all? We have a valid point. It's been proven that it can be triggered accidentally? Even if it is only a risk for new pilots during a panic attack - if an accidental triggering can be avoided - lets ask to have it be avoided....
     
    #15 Tenly, Apr 9, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2016
  16. Meta4

    Meta4 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    7,759
    Likes Received:
    3,469
    It's been said a thousand times. If you feel so strongly about it, go and tell DJI .. they aren't here and don't read this.
    If your son is tugging on the sticks like a crazy chimp, he's going to crash anyway, CSC or not and if you don't advise and supervise him better that's your problem.
    Think about it ... the kind of flying you'd have to be doing to accidentally CSC would involve a downward-backward spiral at max speed while at the same time flying backwards-sideways at max speed - that isn't a move anyone does in normal flight. You won't ever come close.
    You're aware of the potential ... that's about it. You are now protected.
    How about this .... after some flying experience, they completely realise that accidental CSC isn't something that will ever happen to them in normal flight and the fearful reactions from some new flyers aren't warranted?
    To provide a balanced alternative view and reduce the number of unnecessarily scared new flyers.
     
    Myetkt likes this.
  17. Tenly

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2016
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    218
    I don't see much balance. All I see is someone being judgmental, condescending and a touch rude.

    Don't tell me what I can and can't post here. Stop reading this thread if what we are discussing frustrates you. As you said, there are plenty of threads like this where other people have been able to express their opinions and concerns. What makes you think you've got any right at all to deny me mine?

    And you main think that my son would be banging around like a chimp and that I wouldn't be able to present a crash based on his mistakes and you'd be wrong on both counts and I'll put my parenting skills up against your people skills any day of the week! You're entitled to whatever opinion you want on how I parent - but in the future, I'll thank you to keep it to yourself.

    You might also be well advised to jeep your fascination with chimps to yourself. This is at least the third reference to them you've made today - all is them not relevant to anything being discussed.

    Bottom line is that no matter how unlikely it is to accidentally trigger a CSC shutdown while in flight - it is possible to do so - and people have done it. Nothing you say can change that. It's also possible for DJI to rework things so that it is no longer possible to accidentally CSC and I'm going on record as saying that I think they should do so!

    We've seen your "balanced" opinion and I suspect that you've inserted it into all of the other posts on this topic - so i don't think we need to see it again. You have a hard time envisioning a way that this could happen - but happen it does!

    If you're worried that the change I'm asking for is going to remove something you've learned how to do and change frightens you - or you're not sure you'd be able to learn how to do it a different way - rest easy and don't be scared. They will likely provide a choice for people to select the method they are most comfortable with - so you won't have to try and learn something new.
     
  18. Meta4

    Meta4 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    7,759
    Likes Received:
    3,469
    No-one's told you what you can't post here but it appears that you are trying this on me?
    And when it comes to condescending and rude ... you've just set the benchmark.
    If you can't believe that someone with a couple of years experience helping new fliers might possibly have experience worth considering, that's your perogative.
    In the two weeks since you joined up you've obviously acquired a wealth of knowledge and experience.
    Perhaps now you can learn how to respond when dealing with people with opinions that are different to yours.
     
    Myetkt likes this.
  19. konidair

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2016
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    36
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    IMHO you have got 2 really good options:
    1.purchase the CSC locks
    2.buy a cheap toy drone for your son and let him play as long as he wants
    :)
     
  20. Tenly

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2016
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    218
    The weakest thing you can do in any difference of opinion here is to try and invalidate my opinion due to the age of my alias. That's lame dude. Maybe I've been here for years under a different alias or maybe I really am new to this forum - but that doesn't mean that I'm new to the hobby or new to the planet and it certainly doesn't mean I'm not smarter than you!

    Maybe you should re-read your previous post - and perhaps all of my previous posts since I've been here. If you do, you'll see that by default, I'm quite polite and friendly - but if spoken to rudely, I can and will definitely respond in kind - and yes, I may even escalate depending on how rude or ignorant I consider the post I am replying to - and yours was up there - and it was intentional - so drop the high and mighty attitude and at least own up for your own words.

    You have suggested multiple times in this thread that my opinion is wrong and that I should stop posting or go post somewhere else. In response to hypothetical, yet plausible scenario - you compare my son to a clumsy ape and suggest that it is because of my parenting skills. Unless you're new to the planet - you should know that unsolicited, inaccurate and negative criticism of a persons child or their parenting skills are fighting words. You were either being intentionally rude - or you just don't have a clue how to conduct yourself socially. Either way - it makes you look like a jerk and is clearly proof that you set the tone for my reply.

    It's a bit sad that you'd resort to such tactics simply because you were losing an argument. Dude - if you don't want to concede the point to me - then just agree to disagree and back off!

    It doesn't matter how many times this has come up before or how many times you've presented your self-proclaimed "balanced" viewpoint. It keeps coming up for a reason and that is that people can see a flaw/weakness in the current system. Perhaps you and people like you eventually convince them to back off when they realize it is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY to ever affect them - but that doesn't mean that it's a good system and that it can't be improved. Contrary to your repeated claims that it won't happen - this forum contains proof that unintentional CSC motor stops can and do happen!

    So those people to which it happens end having to repair or replace their Phantom and the whole basis for your intransigent position is that they don't matter. You're essentially saying that they deserve to have to pay - to be punished - for not flying properly. That kind of opinion makes you arrogant, condescending and it also makes you sound like a jerk!

    It's extremely clear that the system can be improved. It can be redesigned so that it is COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE to unintentionally trigger a motor shutdown instead of "extremely unlikely". If you're not smart enough to see that after it's been laid out so clearly - then maybe you're not smart enough to offer any advice on any topic. But I don't think that's it. You can see that the system *could* be improvise but you don't want it improved because that would take away an opportunity for you to feel superior to the people that are affected by it - or you feel that it is an appropriate punishment for someone who doesn't fly in the manner that you consider to be "proper" - or that suffers from a brief moment of panic and move the controls the wrong direction.

    Eliminate your emotions and your preconceptions from the equation and tell us again why the system shouldn't be improved? If changes to the process can provide equivalent or better functionality to today's process in terms of reaction time AND completely eliminate the unintentional shutdowns - why shouldn't it be done?

    On second thought - don't answer that. Because if you *do* have a reason why you think it shouldn't be done, it's just going to make you appear even more condescending and arrogant. At this point what you should do is to apologize for the rudeness you instigated and then either concede the point to me or agree to disagree. It's not possible to prove me wrong because the facts are all on my side. Your "balanced view" ignores all of the facts and is supported only by opinion and (attempted) bullying.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.