(Head Slap) I figured out what is wrong with the AMA!

[TimmyG94]

I disagree on both accounts. So does the FAA since they executed a MOU this time last year with the AMA and AMA personnel are well known to the FAA people and have a decent working relationship. So it is hard to understand how you can say that the FAA views the AMA as irrelevant.

That's because there hasn't been any "Commercial AMA" to speak of. The FAA deals with the AMA like a little kid brother who has good intentions but is fairly ignorant how the big, mean world operates. Pat his head, feed him a snack, and send him away so the big boys can talk shop.

Trust me, when commercial drones start flooding the skies the FAA will spend 99% of it's resources focusing on what the big & small companies want their drones to do.

Politicians covet dollars, not hobbyist concerns.

 

[SilentAV8R]

I disagree on both accounts. So does the FAA since they executed a MOU this time last year with the AMA and AMA personnel are well known to the FAA people and have a decent working relationship. So it is hard to understand how you can say that the FAA views the AMA as irrelevant.

That's because there hasn't been any "Commercial AMA" to speak of. The FAA deals with the AMA like a little kid brother who has good intentions but is fairly ignorant how the big, mean world operates.

You clearly lack a fundamental understanding of the differences between hobby and commercial use. I think a "commercial" AMA would be a great thing, and maybe one day there will be. Several groups like RCAPA, AUVSI, etc. are vying to be just that. But that is irrelevant to the hobby end of the world. AMA will continue to deal with hobby related issues with no need, or concern, for a commercial arm or any involvement with that world.

Trust me, when commercial drones start flooding the skies the FAA will spend 99% of it's resources focusing on what the big & small companies want their drones to do. Politicians covet dollars, not hobbyist concerns.

No doubt. Which is exactly why the FAA is comfortable with the current situation of Section 336 and/or AC 91-57 authorizing hobby flying. They can more or less not worry about that part of the world while they turn their focus on commercial users. Why is it that you, and others, seem incapable of separating the two??

 

[SteveMann]

Right. The OP, newly arrived on the scene, has determined what is "wrong" with an organization that has been representing model aviation since 1936. Geekitude?? Wow, for a card-carrying member of the grammar police I am surprised that you embrace the use of neologism so readily. So flying a sophisticated model aircraft is being a geek? What is the illegal modification of a Phantom by hanging so many antennas off of it that it looks like a deep space probe? Nothing geeky there, right?

Now that the OP has determined what is wrong with the AMA, does he, or anyone else have actual constructive ideas on what it could do better and how? Or how about the idea of starting and building your very own CBO to do what the AMA is doing so poorly in your estimation? It is easy to criticize, much harder to actually do something.

New to this forum, but I have been building and flying multi-rotor aircraft for three years. In the previously century I was briefly a member of the AMA when I considered building and flying model aircraft.
The AMA members might find better relations with UAV pilots if they would stop pretending to represent us on one hand while demonstrating a hostility to multi-rotor flight at some of their fields and in their rules.
As I say in my essay "Who Represents Us?" (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1421565/copter/Who Represents Us.doc), the AMA is the organization that you should belong to if you are a a hobby, park flyer. But if you expect the AMA to represent UAV flyers to the FAA, you will be the first to be thrown under the bus when it benefits their core members. Their middle name is "model" and our multi-rotor aircraft aren't a model of anything.
There is nothing the AMA could do. They have historically been reluctant to change, reluctant to accept multi-rotor aircraft, reluctant to support new technology, but, at their core, they will never say or do anything that might promote commercial use.

 

[TimmyG94]

You clearly lack a fundamental understanding of the differences between hobby and commercial use. I think a "commercial" AMA would be a great thing, and maybe one day there will be. Several groups like RCAPA, AUVSI, etc. are vying to be just that. But that is irrelevant to the hobby end of the world. AMA will continue to deal with hobby related issues with no need, or concern, for a commercial arm or any involvement with that world.

Can you read and comprehend basic English?

My responses to you have nothing to do with recognizing that the AMA is a hobbyist organization. What I'm trying to tell you is that the FAA will soon NOT GIVE A **** what the AMA or any hobbyist organization cares about. The FAA will be focusing 99% of it's resources on making big business happy when it comes to commercial drones.

You keep spouting on and on about how much the FAA and the world cares what the AMA thinks. You need to wake up, because the AMA won't be generating billions of dollars like the commercial drone industry will. How much clearer can I make this for you?

Talk about a head slap! :lol:

 

[TimmyG94]

There is nothing the AMA could do. They have historically been reluctant to change, reluctant to accept multi-rotor aircraft, reluctant to support new technology, but, at their core, they will never say or do anything that might promote commercial use.

+10

You pretty much summed up what I've been saying all along. The FAA cares about DOLLARS, not the AMA and it's petty concerns about the modeling hobby. Commercial drones will be used by large and small business, and that's what the FAA will focus on in the coming years. Nobody in the govt. cares about hobbyists unless we are invading commercial airspace and threatening public safety.

Why are people having such a hard time understanding this?

 

[N017RW]

What exactly is your gripe with the AMA anyways?

 

[SilentAV8R]

the AMA is the organization that you should belong to if you are a a hobby, park flyer. But if you expect the AMA to represent UAV flyers to the FAA, you will be the first to be thrown under the bus when it benefits their core members.

That is a little harsh. In fact, AMA is working towards getting the FAA to allow what they call "purposeful use." Meaning that if you are a farmer, and you are the one who owns and flies a drone, then there is no reason you cannot use it yourself. However, you would not be able to do it for your buddies. That seems like a decent compromise. But I see no reason why anyone wold expect the AMA to represent anyone other than their members. By that logic EAA should represent corporate jet pilots.

Their middle name is "model" and our multi-rotor aircraft aren't a model of anything.

Exactly. I keep saying that multicopter AP is a great hobby, but it is NOT model aviation as it has been known for almost 6 decades now.

There is nothing the AMA could do. They have historically been reluctant to change, reluctant to accept multi-rotor aircraft, reluctant to support new technology, but, at their core, they will never say or do anything that might promote commercial use.

Perhaps. As I noted above, they are looking favorably on personal commercial use. Realtor using his Phantoms, etc. But if you want to fly pipelines, for Hollywood, etc., that is a different thing.

As I have tried to say several places, I strongly encourage people to come to the AMA Expo in Ontario, CA this weekend. All but one speaker is a drone oriented person and there will be TONS of multicopter stuff there, way more than the pitiful "LA Drone Expo" that we got reamed $45 to attend.

For the record, I guess I am an old fart. I have been in the AMA for 48 years. I served as an Associate VP in District X for several years and have run nearly 50 contests of various kinds. I've flown giant scale aerobatics, pattern, IMAC, helicopters (nitro and electric), soaring (slope racing, thermal, scale), and just plain sport flying. I have two Phantoms, and I like them as a tool, but they are a snooze to "fly". I never feel like I am flying them, I merely operate them. But I love taking photos and video with them. It augments my second hobby of photography. Maybe someday I'll get an airframe that I can take my Canon 5D up on!!

 

[Great Pumpkin]

I'd like to twist this discussion a little if I may. Can someone tell me just WHO is the FAA? I can see Michael Huerta is the head administrator, but he doesn't make policy by himself. How are FAA officials appointed? What are their qualifications? Wikipedia tells the qualifications for Designated Engineering Representative (DER) and Designated Airworthiness Representative (DAR), but I cannot find how the FAA is organized, who is sitting around a table deciding the Sept 2015 regulations pertaining to sUASs.

 

[SilentAV8R]

You pretty much summed up what I've been saying all along. The FAA cares about DOLLARS, not the AMA and it's petty concerns about the modeling hobby.

The FAA cares about air safety. Period. They do not generate any income from what they do. So I am always at a loss when I see this assertion. And as far as your insulting all of model aviation and the AMA's support of it for 6 decades as "petty concerns", well, I can't write what I really feel about that other than to say that it demonstrates your ignorance and bias.

 

[Khudson7]

There is nothing the AMA could do. They have historically been reluctant to change, reluctant to accept multi-rotor aircraft, reluctant to support new technology, but, at their core, they will never say or do anything that might promote commercial use.

+10

You pretty much summed up what I've been saying all along. The FAA cares about DOLLARS, not the AMA and it's petty concerns about the modeling hobby. Commercial drones will be used by large and small business, and that's what the FAA will focus on in the coming years. Nobody in the govt. cares about hobbyists unless we are invading commercial airspace and threatening public safety.

Why are people having such a hard time understanding this?

Wow, just trying to understand the two sides of argument here, and my head is getting dizzy...(perhaps because I am an "old fart" too)

It appears to me the OP had some kind of head slap moment realizing the AMA does not act as representative of multi-rotor UAV's(because many of their "older" members):
a. tend to act snobbish toward our types of crafts as being child like.
b. show no interest in the commercial side that many of us might have an interest in.
c. the underlying fear the AMA might be perceived by both the FAA and others to be the spokespeople for all UAV's and they are not.
d. their main activities takes place in a very controlled dedicated field which is not conducive to aerial videography or filming, the types of things we may be interested in.

So he started this thread to point out the AMA should NOT be considered as the organization that represents us for these reasons, to the FAA.

I guess I do not have to have my head slapped to know that. I already assumed that AMA's agenda was always only for the recreational(plane?) flyer, no interest in photographic aspect and has no agenda to support any type of commercial activities for which our crafts tend to be so perfect.
Seems to me they do serve a very good purpose for some recreational flyers. And they do seem to emphasize the importance to safety, which is also the main agenda of the FAA. But other than that, they are probably not the best organization to represent our needs. But, right now there does not appear to be an organization out there that has an agenda specially for our needs. Perhaps the OP may want to step up to the plate, and start one.

 

[SilentAV8R]

I'd like to twist this discussion a little if I may. Can someone tell me just WHO is the FAA? I can see Michael Huerta is the head administrator, but he doesn't make policy by himself. How are FAA officials appointed? What are their qualifications? Wikipedia tells the qualifications for Designated Engineering Representative (DER) and Designated Airworthiness Representative (DAR), but I cannot find how the FAA is organized, who is sitting around a table deciding the Sept 2015 regulations pertaining to sUASs.

The Director of the FAA is appointed. Pretty much all the rest of them are career civil service staff staff. The group that is writing the sUAS Rule and that is responsible for UAV integration is headed by Jim Williams.

https://www.faa.gov/uas/

The Federal Rulemaking process is a convoluted bureaucratic maze.

 

[SilentAV8R]

Seems to me they do serve a very good purpose for some recreational flyers. And they do seem to emphasize the importance to safety, which is also the main agenda of the FAA. But other than that, they are probably not the best organization to represent our needs. But, right now there does not appear to be an organization out there that has an agenda specially for our needs. Perhaps the OP may want to step up to the plate, and start one.

AMA represents over 175,000 modelers in the US. Maybe not NRA numbers, but still a pretty significant group. Beyond AMA members, the traditional hobby industry us no small potatoes. RC and other model aviation supports a lot of small and larger companies, provides a good number of jobs, and is responsible for getting a lot of people interested in careers in aviation (people like Burt Rutan, Hoot Gibson, and so on. Plus loads of engineers, pilots, etc.).

There are a number of groups vying to represent the commercial user:

http://www.auvsi.org/home

https://www.facebook.com/thesoac

http://rcapa.net/

And a few others. But they are out there.

 

[ianwood]

I think the point is that not only does the AMA not represent commercial interests, it doesn't necessarily reflect the interests of many amateur multi-rotor users, myself included.

 

[TimmyG94]

For the record, I guess I am an old fart. I have been in the AMA for 48 years. I served as an Associate VP in District X for several years and have run nearly 50 contests of various kinds. I've flown giant scale aerobatics, pattern, IMAC, helicopters (nitro and electric), soaring (slope racing, thermal, scale), and just plain sport flying. I have two Phantoms, and I like them as a tool, but they are a snooze to "fly". I never feel like I am flying them, I merely operate them. But I love taking photos and video with them. It augments my second hobby of photography. Maybe someday I'll get an airframe that I can take my Canon 5D up on!!

I can respect your lifelong passion for model aircraft and your dedication to the AMA. They should be proud to have you as a member.

However, the writing is on the wall about the future of drones and your organization is about to become very irrelevant in the years ahead. Sorry to be harsh about it, but you need to see the truth here. The AMA is only concerned about enthusiasts who want to keep "flying in the backyard". Multi-rotors will be flying way beyond our backyards and doing things so amazing that it will be almost hard to believe. It's a whole different ball of wax compared to what model aviation has been about for the past 50 years.

Expecting the FAA or Congress to care about what the AMA thinks is like asking Google or Apple to care about what the Homebrew Computer Club (place where Jobs & Wozniak debuted the Apple I prototype in 1975) thinks about the future of consumer electronics, or what the HAM Radio Association thinks about the future of global communications.

 

[GoodnNuff]

For the record, I guess I am an old fart. I have been in the AMA for 48 years. I served as an Associate VP in District X for several years and have run nearly 50 contests of various kinds. I've flown giant scale aerobatics, pattern, IMAC, helicopters (nitro and electric), soaring (slope racing, thermal, scale), and just plain sport flying. I have two Phantoms, and I like them as a tool, but they are a snooze to "fly". I never feel like I am flying them, I merely operate them. But I love taking photos and video with them. It augments my second hobby of photography. Maybe someday I'll get an airframe that I can take my Canon 5D up on!!

I can respect your lifelong passion for model aircraft and your dedication to the AMA. They should be proud to have you as a member.

However, the writing is on the wall about the future of drones and your organization is about to become very irrelevant in the years ahead. Sorry to be harsh about it, but you need to see the truth here. The AMA is only concerned about enthusiasts who want to keep "flying in the backyard". Multi-rotors will be flying way beyond our backyards and doing things so amazing that it will be almost hard to believe. It's a whole different ball of wax compared to what model aviation has been about for the past 50 years.

Expecting the FAA or Congress to care about what the AMA thinks is like asking Google or Apple to care about what the Homebrew Computer Club (place where Jobs & Wozniak debuted the Apple I prototype in 1975) thinks about the future of consumer electronics, or what the HAM Radio Association thinks about the future of global communications.

Timmy, I'm curious. You stated earlier how tired you are of being belittled on this list my life long members of the AMA.
In fact you stated:

I'm getting a little fed up with all the AMA lifetime members coming in here to belittle us Phantom pilots as if we are dumb little kids! :twisted:

Can you direct me to the threads where this has happened? Do you have a specific incident that you can relate to us where you were belittled by AMA members? I'm just curious where you've been attacked and insulted on this forum.
Thanks.

 

[PhantomFanatic]

Hmm, I really thought I shared a valid and rational case for experience over youth. I guess I truly am an old fart as it only had meaning for me!

 

[SilentAV8R]

I worked with an old fart when I was fresh out of school.
He was fond of reminding me that youth and vitality is no match for old age and treachery!!

 

[SteveMann]

You pretty much summed up what I've been saying all along. The FAA cares about DOLLARS, not the AMA and it's petty concerns about the modeling hobby.

Not directly. All fees, assessments and fines go into the General Fund of the US Treasury, the FAA budget is set by Congress. Congress, on the other hand, do care about money and how much the Predator-Class UAV builders (Lockheed, etc) can contribute to their re-election. This is where the AMA with their 170,000 members have clout. That's a lot of votes and Congresscritters don't ignore them. (For comparison, the AOPA has about 380,000 members, and the ALPA has 51,000 members).

 

[Khudson7]

Hmm, I really thought I shared a valid and rational case for experience over youth. I guess I truly am an old fart as it only had meaning for me!

I did read your thread with interest, as it also hit home for me and my experiences as well. So you are not alone in your experiences.

 

[Khudson7]

I am not so sure that we should completely dismiss that AMA as some here, seem to suggest. It is a rather large and well organized group around recreational flying and safety. They do have an in with the FAA now. It was mentioned that some of the older members are complaining about the influx of "dronie" members. Not sure all of that is a bad thing. Their upcoming convention features a number of speakers that are UAV interest related.

Despite some of their older members trying to "Poo Poo" our type flying, it may very well be that those among us that do join and become more vocal, might influence this organization to work more toward our needs in the future. I see these old farts that are complaining within that organization...as a good thing. Means they are being forced to recognize our needs, much to their chagrin.
I see old farts complaining the MOST(me included), when being forced to "change their(old fart) ways".