FAA just called me

It seems the FAA is basically upset about the manner in which this "Trappy" from Team Blacksheep was flying, and are citing 14 C.F.R. § 91.13(a) (flying in a careless or wreckless manner).

"The FAA says it will try to stop unauthorized commercial activity if it becomes known but adds that it will resort to civil penalties only in extreme cases. “We really would only pursue a civil penalty if someone was operating an unmanned aircraft in a reckless manner,” said FAA spokesman Les Dorr."
[Source: http://www.suasnews.com/2013/12/26446/t ... o-the-faa/]

In regards to not regulating hobbyists for non-commercial use, while regulating UAVs for commercial use, perhaps the FAA thinks that businesses would feel that they have no boundaries and would do anything to give their clients what they desire, and that (real) hobbyists adhere to safety practices and are more disciplined. Either that or they want their "cut" (from permits, licenses, etc.) but do not have the policies in place for that yet.


14 C.F.R. § 91.13(a) applies to Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS).
14 C.F.R. § 91.13(a) states  that "[n]o  person may  operate an aircraft  in a careless or reckless 
manner so as to endanger the life or property of another."  As UASs are "aircraft" pursuant to 14 
C.F.R. § 1.1, their careless or reckless operation is prohibited.  14 C.F.R. § 91.1 states that "this part 
prescribes rules governing the operation  of aircraft (other than  moored balloons, kites,  unmanned 
2  Respondent at page 10 of his motion cites FAA Order 2150.3 B and suggests that the FAA is acting contrary to its 
policy in initiated this action against him because he is a Swiss citizen.  FAA order 2150.3B provides general 
guidance only on how it intends to carry out its statutory and regulatory enforcement responsibilities.  It does not act 
to limit the Administrator's authority to take any enforcement action when he finds it is in  the interest of safety. 
7 rockets, and unmanned free balloons, which are governed  by part 101 of this chapter, and ultralight 
vehicles operated in accordance with part 103 of this chapter) within the United States ...Id. 
The fact that "unmanned rockets" and "kites," among others, are addressed  in specific sections 
of  the  FARs  does  not  imply  that  UASs  are  thereby  removed  from  the  definition  of  "aircraft." 
Respondent's assertion that UASs should be given specific treatment in the FARs does not result in 
the conclusion he suggests that they are not "aircraft" as the term is used in the FAA's regulations. 
In fact, the express exclusion  of "moored  balloons,  kites,  unmanned rockets, and  unmanned free 
balloons" from Subpart A demonstrates that these devices are also "aircraft" as defined in 14 C.F.R. 
 
I was able to read the brief, in it's entirety, and it really clearly spells out the "conundrum", between UAS operators for "hire", and the position the FAA has taken.
So, I have nothing further to add to what was posted, and redacted my original post.

Thank you to the poster for the post-and keeping us updated on this issue.
 
The Hollywood movie studios are using UAVs in aerial cinematography every day. They love them since in movies like Fast & Furious they don't have to put a live camera crew in dangerous locations when a stunt might go awry. It just wipes out a copter that is cheap by their budget standards. So how is this not commercial use? The FAA is not chasing them to the courthouse.
 
Good point Jim, I know TGR has used them for a long time as well. They are not exactly hiding that fact either in this behind the scenes episode. Cool scenes here, not all heli scenes but you can see the ones that are and also a shot of the bird they were flying. Not sure how these pro film crews get away with it. Seen another today with an octocopter shooting a Ford SVT commercial!

Off topic.... If you have ever been to JH and stood on top of Corbet's you can appreciate this even more! Love the Teton range myself, I have never felt more 'home' than in that range. I am actually in process of moving my family from MI to Driggs, ID. Here we come! Going to have some sweet places to shoot out there, pretty stoked!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QRvBARVAzw
 
Jre brought up a good point with Team Blacksheep. If I read the story right, they were fined for flying over the University of Virginia. For those of us who want to fly legally and respectfully, is there a list of no-fly zones? Where I went to school there were a lot of wide open spaces and parks that would have been great to fly over. Not sure why flying over UofV was a big problem unless the FAA was looking for a reason to bust Team Blacksheep.
 
No, you read it completely wrong. the location in and of itself had little to do with the action taken by the FAA.
 
chad556 said:
I just received a phone call from an FAA official out of Scottdsdale, AZ informing me that a cease and desist letter would be arriving via certified mail to my address within the next few days. .... He was not nice about this either. He said that I would be fined if caught using my phantom for any commercial services....I verified that the person I was speaking to was indeed an official with the FAA.

OK. It's happening, folks.

For those of you who haven't been on the forum very long, I've been posting warnings here for months about the way the RC community is tempting fate by posting YouTube videos of their attempts at "record altitude flights" and such. This has not been limited to Phantom owners per se, but they've been involved too.

This particular issue relates to FAA's problems with commercial use of RC aircraft, and my previous warnings were about flying these things up where conventional airplanes fly, creating a safety hazard. But the writing's on the wall, people. Now you're getting the FAA's attention, and they have your number, literally.

One forum user here in particular a couple of months ago, "justsomeguy", was especially "in my face" in claiming that my warnings had no merit, posting images of me as a "chicken", and similar childish behavior. But he had no real-world aviation experience, or anything else of significance to bring to the table; all he had was a computer, which he used to Google some avionics he claimed could eliminate any potential interference with conventional air traffic. I happen to have decades of experience as a certificated US pilot, and his "solution" only demonstrated his lack of understanding about how the system works.

So, here's the deal: Now that we have the FAA's attention, we better straighten up and fly right, or risk losing our freedom to fly our Phantoms and other RC aircraft without government intervention, regardless of whether the issue is conflict with real airplanes, or using RC aircraft commercially with no authorization. The FAA is like the IRS - they take no prisoners.

Consider yourselves warned. You too, "justsomeguy".
 
Yep I agree. And you don't have to worry about being harassed by JSG anymore...I believe he's been removed. To be honest all this attention and hyper criticism of these phantoms has got me so cautious that I won't post any videos..here especially. I think while this site can be very useful and helpful because it seems to be just about the #1 site for these things...it has also drawn the attention of FAA and other regulators. Good advice to be careful what you do with these and if you do step out of the legal boundaries...for gosh sake don't post a video of it. Thanks for your words of wisdom brother.

J
 
What a joke. Well they are not all rocket scientists.
I had one interview me when I was about 13 or 14 years old as I witnessed a fatal small aircraft crash . I remembered the guy because when he interviewed me he was terrible, he conducted a real leading type interview and the final version was not even close to what I said. Funny thing is I was afraid not to just go along because as he sat in my bedroom doing the interview, on the wall above his head, and behind him was the front wheel and tire from the piper cub that he was interviewing me about. He never bothered to look at it or note it. I swear I could even smell the burnt rubber from it while being interrogated. BTW I did not know any better, I just considered it a trophy payment for me having look at a charred body at that young age. After all the tire (and crash) was in my back yard. That guy that called is probably the same dude that interrogated me,mmmmmmmmm well maybe not, if so he would be about.......120 years old?
 
Just an opinion but...

They are just covering their butts. As with any sport, business, hobby or anything in life, there are individuals who are just idiots and do stupid things that are regrettable when accidents happen. Regulation is a requirement for everyones safety and it should not matter whether it is for business or for pleasure. After all, any hardcore R/C fan would never fly their aircraft over an airport or a quad off a high-rise building (as seen on the internet). In fact, it is common sense but then there are people apparently born without this attribute.

The problem is the FAA does't know how to specifically handle this growing industry through proper and appropriate regulation so they need to cover butts until then.

In the meantime fly safe, use common sense and enjoy the pleasure of flight!
 
How much is the fine if you don't stop or some time in the pokey?

What if the photos are free of charge for all the photos - Is there a way to charge as a work around?

or don't even go there?

:shock:
 
360icon said:
How much is the fine if you don't stop or some time in the pokey?

What if the photos are free of charge for all the photos - Is there a way to charge as a work around?

or don't even go there?

:shock:

The answers to those mostly depend on how good of a lawyer you have or what judge tries the case (if it comes to that) :D Regardless of what the law technically defines right now, the potential loopholes like that have yet to be tested in court, so it's kind of a grey area. There's the current banner case against Trappy, but that seems to be more on the merits of safety rather than commercialization.

I know there's a number of people who are getting creative with ways to get around "charging" for the work but still making a business of it. However, nobody really knows if any of them will get you out of hot water when the hangman comes to town.
 
So its it selling the images or is it using them a no-no? -

what if - i give it all away for free aerial images/video of a big warehouse for sale - can a company use them?
 
360icon said:
So its it selling the images or is it using them a no-no? -

what if - i give it all away for free aerial images/video of a big warehouse for sale - can a company use them?
In New Zealand the rules written along the lines of "when used for commercial gain or reward". So if the company you are giving the photos too are using them for a business purpose that they gain from (I.e on selling, advertising, renovating, business improvement) then it would still be illegal. That's in NZ anyway, you might have different laws but hope that helps clear it up?
 
freelanceshots said:
When I think of the term drone it's an unmanned aircraft flown by a person on the ground through a display or goggles. This drone craft also records video so the term fits like a glove. The FPV flying that everyone is chasing is a major culprit. If it weren't for this aspect I think these RC craft would be treated more like your heli's and other RC toys. Line of sight should have been the understood rule for non military or specific organizations. The FPV potential gets people doing all kinds of things they wouldn't consider without it. Flying up in the clouds when you can't keep track of your craft is what I think is the straw that broke the camel's back.


Ive checked the laws here in Norway and the terms are pretty clear. It is divided between commercial and hobby usage.

If it is used for commercial use, you have to apply for the use of your multikopter. If it is an unmanned self-flying "drone", like GPS waypoint, you will also have to apply to the correct officials, before lift-off

If your mulitkopter is an RC/hobby object and is controlled by you and it is not "self-flying" (gps waypoints), and the video/photos you take are for your own recreational use, it is allowed to use withouth any application or restrictions. No rule about line of sight or FPV.
 
360icon said:
So its it selling the images or is it using them a no-no? -

what if - i give it all away for free aerial images/video of a big warehouse for sale - can a company use them?


You selling the images is illegal.
You giving them to a business and them using the images just means that you weren't smart enough to negotiate being paid by them, and your both still in trouble.

All that is assuming you don't have an OC for the FAA, you can legally be licensed to use these for aerial photography! It just costs more than its worth!
 
mduehmig said:
Jre brought up a good point with Team Blacksheep. If I read the story right, they were fined for flying over the University of Virginia. For those of us who want to fly legally and respectfully, is there a list of no-fly zones? Where I went to school there were a lot of wide open spaces and parks that would have been great to fly over. Not sure why flying over UofV was a big problem unless the FAA was looking for a reason to bust Team Blacksheep.

The story I heard was that he basically "buzzed" over people and did other dumb things, just asking for an accident or trouble. (The name "Team Blacksheep" tells me something of his attitude). From what I have gleaned the FAA doesn't want to set precedents that would complicate future rule making, but their present rules don't really give them a firm foundation for doing much, so they don't want to get involved unless there is a clear and present danger.

Also it's Virginia... not that far from all those government offices. Back in the day, I had occasion to turn on a CB radio in Richmond, and unlike everywhere else, I noticed how "official" and polite everybody was. That was the about the only place I ever heard call letters on CB.... and I figured it was because that's where the FCC offices are. In other words, don't tempt fate when fate lives nearby.

In short, don't do anything stupid that will generate complaints or otherwise get the wrong kind of attention of the FAA. For myself, I carry an insurance card (AMA) and an FCC license, practice as much as I can, fly with a "spotter", stay within VLOS and under 400 ft. When the FAA turns on the green light, I'll be ready to go commercial.
 
Sorry...just joined and in all honesty didnt read the whole 10 pages...

In USA am I allowed to fly and take video's and images for fun and post on youtube as long as I don't sell them?

Lastly did the OP ever get the letter? Did anyone ever get the letter?

Just curious...

P
 
ppdrone said:
Sorry...just joined and in all honesty didnt read the whole 10 pages...

In USA am I allowed to fly and take video's and images for fun and post on youtube as long as I don't sell them?

P

and you stay under 400ft or so,. away from airports.
 

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