Enough with the complaints

[streetreporter]

Great, I was reading the original post in this thread on my iPhone while I was flying and I crashed! Thanks a lot -- it's YOUR FAULT I was reading your post on the device that's supposed to be showing my FPV feed. I'm returning this to B&H and claiming manufacturer defect....

 

[Geoelectro]

Great, I was reading the original post in this thread on my iPhone while I was flying and I crashed! Thanks a lot -- it's YOUR FAULT I was reading your post on the device that's supposed to be showing my FPV feed. I'm returning this to B&H and claiming manufacturer defect....

Ha! Ha!

Geo

 

[pylon]

Well, I pretty much agree 100% with everything here - except for the flight control restrictions that can't be deactivated in the version of the firmware that ships with the P2V+. But, then again, if you don't want to fly a gimped quad, there's a solution for too. All you need to do is download and flash the 1.08 firmware, and you're good to go.

I haven't had a need to do this yet with mine, but plan to if I ever decide to take it into DC to fly. I'm not sure that's a particularly good idea, so don't really have any plans to do this yet. But I do have to admit that some pictures of the top of the Washington Monument would be really cool if there would be a way to do it without creating problems with anybody who has law enforcement powers. (I suppose this is one of the few times in life where you're actually better off asking for permission than forgiveness.)

These have to have flight restrictions, there is no way around it. As long as DJI installs it with them from the factory the onus is on the operator if the default software is modded, and one of these things get sucked into the engine of a 787 and kills 300 people. And it is absolutely going to happen. There are enough yahoos out there that are so narcissistic in their desire to fly the thing only the way it suits them, that it is only a matter of time until something catastrophic is going to happen. I can guarantee you no-fly zones was at the behest of DJI's lawyers for lawsuit protection, and nothing more. They try incredibly hard to try and force you to make sure you update your craft.

And no, this cannot be related to the gun debate, so don't even try. You cannot shoot an airliner down from 10,000 feet with a 44 magnum, and you do not need a UAV personal protection.

 

[verisimilitude]

and one of these things get sucked into the engine of a 787 and kills 300 people. And it is absolutely going to happen.

"Absolutely" must have a different meaning on your planet.

 

[CarlJ]

and one of these things get sucked into the engine of a 787 and kills 300 people. And it is absolutely going to happen.

"Absolutely" must have a different meaning on your planet.

And THAT is your take away, and issue. Amazing...

 

[sergekouper]

Great post Pylon, and so true! It seems obvious that some people don't read the original manual, get the latest firmware to be current, and then get in trouble because they didn't read the new manual either... Others assume things and take them for facts, or rights they have.
I believe RC brings some fun to hobbyists, but flying a Phantom (and probably multi rotors in general) is no Fun.
it's not a toy,
It requires practical skills and theory knowledge,
It's potentially dangerous (Someone said they are flying lawnmowers and I agree with that)
and should be used for a professional/surveillance/whatever/ purpose but not for entertainment.
I have not been a pilot for a long time, but I have quickly understood these points and stay extremely cautious.
I guess, as said before, that just like in any other community, the 80/20 rule applies...

 

[DrJoe]

I haven't had a need to do this yet with mine, but plan to if I ever decide to take it into DC to fly. I'm not sure that's a particularly good idea, so don't really have any plans to do this yet.

There is a model aircraft restriction/law in place in DC. Don't try it.

I can guarantee you no-fly zones was at the behest of DJI's lawyers for lawsuit protection, and nothing more. They try incredibly hard to try and force you to make sure you update your craft.

Actually, the reason for the restrictions was the the Chinese government insisted upon a 15km flight restriction around Tieniman Square in Bejing. They threw in the class b, c and some d airspace restrictions to "package it". I'm not saying to fly around airports, I'm just stating the facts.

 

[verisimilitude]

and one of these things get sucked into the engine of a 787 and kills 300 people. And it is absolutely going to happen.

"Absolutely" must have a different meaning on your planet.

And THAT is your take away, and issue. Amazing...

Facts = good, hysterical speculation = not good.

Hopefully that simplified version will help you in your search for understanding.

 

[CarlJ]

Actually, the reason for the restrictions was the the Chinese government insisted upon a 15km flight restriction around Tieniman Square in Bejing. They threw in the class b, c and some d airspace restrictions to "package it". I'm not saying to fly around airports, I'm just stating the facts.

I'm not a doctor, but I did stay at a holiday inn last night. If this is true, why effect change all over the world to squash descent in one tiny spot on the map? Are they staying true to that ancient Chinese fable "The Atom Bomb and the Mouse"?

And as doctors shouldn't we subscribe to the personal grooming ideology professed by the late William of Ockham who said "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one"? Would it not be much simpler if they (DJI) were reacting to the hand writing on the wall, and avoiding the inevitable litigation when one of their drones flies into the engine of a 787 and kills all 300 people aboard?

I don't think they're nice people benevolently gifting others with their tech either, but I always assumed like so many others, they were just out for the money.

 

[CarlJ]

Facts = good, hysterical speculation = not good.

Hopefully that simplified version will help you in your search for understanding.

I guess people of reasonable minds can disagree, I'd hardly call it hysterical to point out that there is a hand writing on the wall.

 

[gunslinger]

and one of these things get sucked into the engine of a 787 and kills 300 people. And it is absolutely going to happen.

"Absolutely" must have a different meaning on your planet.

IMHO... I think it's inevitable that eventually one of the many thousands of quads out there, in inexperienced or careless hands, will cause loss of life. How many stupid things have we seen just viewing this forum alone? :shock:

3.5 mile FPV flights. (You can't see anything in the environment around you, and have no idea what's in the air in your general proximity. That sounds like a good idea?) :roll:

2,000 feet altitude. (See above... ) :roll:

Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should...
IMHO, of course...

-slinger

 

[DrJoe]

And as doctors shouldn't we subscribe to the personal grooming ideology professed by the late William of Ockham who said "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one"? Would it not be much simpler if they (DJI) were reacting to the hand writing on the wall, and avoiding the inevitable litigation when one of their drones flies into the engine of a 787 and kills all 300 people aboard?.

I believe my statements fit perfectly with Ockham's razor. DJI was told to restrict flight by the Chinese government. This is true, this is fact. In order to do so, they had to enable geo fencing for their GPS. To make it palatable to the buying public, they packaged it as a feature.

Maybe the corporation was trying to limit its liability. Did it? No. You can use earlier firmware to "repeal" these restrictions. The database is incomplete, and in some cases inaccurate.

 

[CarlJ]

and one of these things get sucked into the engine of a 787 and kills 300 people. And it is absolutely going to happen.

"Absolutely" must have a different meaning on your planet.

IMHO... I think it's inevitable that eventually one of the many thousands of quads out there, in inexperienced or careless hands, will cause loss of life. How many stupid things have we seen just viewing this forum alone? :shock:

3.5 mile FPV flights. (You can't see anything in the environment around you, and have no idea what's in the air in your general proximity. That sounds like a good idea?) :roll:

2,000 feet altitude. (See above... ) :roll:

Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should...
IMHO, of course...

-slinger

Odds and probability

A 10 year old girl named Laura Buxton released a balloon with her name and address on it, which floated 140 miles and landed in the back yard of a house where also lived a 10 year old girl named Laura Buxton. On the day of the meeting, the two girls wore essentially the same outfit — a pink sweater and jeans. The girls were the same height, which was unusual because they were both tall for their age. They both had brown hair and wore it in the same style. They both had three-year-old black Labrador Retrievers at home, as well as gray pet rabbits. They both brought their guinea pigs, which were the same color and even had the same orange markings on their hindquarters. It was almost as though these two Laura Buxtons were the same person.
Read more at http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/trivia/bu ... Lc5XtVd.99

When scientists were asked to explain the odds of something like this occurring they remarked that with 7 billion people on the planet, the odds were good.

The more people with Phantoms, the greater the odds and probability.

 

[CarlJ]

And as doctors shouldn't we subscribe to the personal grooming ideology professed by the late William of Ockham who said "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one"? Would it not be much simpler if they (DJI) were reacting to the hand writing on the wall, and avoiding the inevitable litigation when one of their drones flies into the engine of a 787 and kills all 300 people aboard?.

I believe my statements fit perfectly with Ockham's razor. DJI was told to restrict flight by the Chinese government. This is true, this is fact. In order to do so, they had to enable geo fencing for their GPS. To make it palatable to the buying public, they packaged it as a feature.

Maybe the corporation was trying to limit its liability. Did it? No. You can use earlier firmware to "repeal" these restrictions. The database is incomplete, and in some cases inaccurate.

You could be right, but if you are that means they're far less creative than I thought they were. How did you come to believe this is true?

And yes, YOU can modify the firmware, and if I were DJI I'd keep bring that fact up in court. YOU decided to circumvent the protections they so rightly put in place.

 

[DrJoe]

The more people with Phantoms, the greater the odds and probability.

For the first week or so, I had many concerns and established my own personal maximums, minimums, and limitations. I shared them. I was attacked, labeled a doomsayer, etc.

I am personally responsible for what my Phantom does, end of story. So is everyone else.

These things are going to be restricted, require registration, etc. But with all the advancements in swarm behavior, redundant failure management, collision avoidance, etc, drones will be filling the skys one day soon. See the research at the GRASP lab of UPenn.

 

[DrJoe]

[quote="CarlJ How did you come to believe this is true?[/quote]

https://sites.google.com/site/dronejour ... -tiananmen
http://www.fpvguy.com/2013/08/restricte ... ilots.html
http://www.howto-make.org/gMKr8Money2x8 ... nment.html

How or why isn't important. I'm not a fan of restrictions, be they government or corporate. I don't want a speed governor on my car, or an altitude governor on my quadrotor. You can't protect the public from all forms of stupidity. I would welcome geofence warnings, but no restrictions, if they were implemented accurately and reliably.

 

[jodaddy23]

inb4 Cool story bro
inb4 TLDR
inb4 Wall of text

I have been browsing this forum for a couple months now, and some of he complaints are absolutely ludicrous. DJI is in a damned if they do, and damned if they don't position.

Some of the common complaints with a solid dose of hyperbole for effect:

"OMG there is prop interference with my Camera!"

"DJI is the suxxorz, my Vision + won't hold GPS position on hover within a 2mm margin of error!"

"The big stupid heads at DJI keep releasing better products making my 1337 Vision obsolete!"

And in another thread the same blowhard will post:

"The big stupid heads at teh DJI keep won't release the next 10D gimbal with fully sentient AI flight controller until next week! I dun sue DJI!1!!1!!!!"

"DJI, Y U NO PUT LEICA 4K CAMERA WITH HAND GROUND DILITHIUM LENS ON COPTER AND PRICE PACKAGE AT $199?"

"My Vision crashed into a building, fell 300 feet into the street, got run over by a Unimog, and attacked by a bear, and now my gimbal is bent! What a piece of fragile junk! DJI owes me threeve thousand dollars and unlimited Phantoms 4EVER! Hey anyone have their number to call them? I threw away the owners manual the second I took it out of the box."

"DJI is teh Hitler, and violating the constitution with restricted flight zones. It's my god given constitutional right to do high altitude flybys of the only Antonov 225 in existence while it is visiting my local airport delivering refuelling rods for local reactor. I bet DJI supports gun control too. Thanks Obama!"

About two weeks ago, I was over at my 73 year old dads house, and showed him my vision+, he is a retired yet highly respected electrical engineer, one of the best in his field on the face of this planet. I flew it around, and uploaded the video to my Mac to show him how it looks. He was absolutely dumfounded. "How much was that thing $10,000?" When I told him it was $1500 bucks he thought I was pulling his leg. Even though there have been initial growing pains with the product, you have access to a device that 10 years ago, could have been sold to a military agency for $100k+ per copy. It is a new era in technology where you are able to pull this device right out of the box, and have it airborne in minutes, delivering rock steady video clarity which was unheard of 15 years ago. I for one wan't DJI to keep pushing the limits, and keep releasing new product on a steep initial development cycle. Like the iPhone it will eventually plateau and level out, but in the mean time, you are purchasing an absolute, 100%, bonafide luxury item. Your rights as a consumer are not being violated by the rapidly changing product upgrades. That's the name of the game in high tech anything now. Deal with it. If you want to play with the big boy toys, be prepared to have the budget to do so.

I am also convinced that 95% of the crashes are due to pilot error. I am on my fourth Phantom (Phantom 1, FC40, Vision, Vision+) and every time I receive my new machine, I read the manual for new features/updates, calibrate the compass, run it up without the props to ensure the motors are all in sync, and inspect and balance my props. Not until then do I take it to an open field, and do a low altitude, battery draining, tethered test flight to ensure I have a reliable craft. The majority of these catastrophic failures seem to be newb pilots, the are crashing in their initial flights. How many have been properly calibrated? How many have actually thoroughly read the manual? How many are actually standing directly behind the craft to get proper spacial control orientation when they take off, to avoid the craft darting left or right instead of forward when they push the right stick forward? Out of all those machines, I have had one crash, and it was because I took off standing to the side, lost spacial orientation, and crashed it into my house. 100% pilot error. It cost me 2 props, and 1 landing skid.

We are incredibly lucky to have such an amazing device. But for god sakes, be patient, go through the proper steps, and quit the bloody whining if things don't go exactly as planned. We are in the figurative 'Beta' stage of these things, and that is the risk you take to be an early adopter.
/rant

you got an owners manual from the box ? :mrgreen:

 

[CarlJ]

[quote="CarlJ How did you come to believe this is true?

https://sites.google.com/site/dronejour ... -tiananmen
http://www.fpvguy.com/2013/08/restricte ... ilots.html
http://www.howto-make.org/gMKr8Money2x8 ... nment.html

How or why isn't important. I'm not a fan of restrictions, be they government or corporate. I don't want a speed governor on my car, or an altitude governor on my quadrotor. You can't protect the public from all forms of stupidity. I would welcome geofence warnings, but no restrictions, if they were implemented accurately and reliably.

Clearly the Chinese Government has a desire to restrict filming in that square, and with good reason, it's troublesome having the whole world watching you attack your own people with tanks. It leads to people having ideas of revolution and other such mischievous actions, and totally agree with your disdain for that line of thinking.

Where I think we differ is that there is some linkage between that action and the geofence as a whole.

And while true you can't protect the public from all and any harm, restrictions in areas where human life is at jeopardy seems prudent.

 

[CarlJ]

you got an owners manual from the box ? :mrgreen:

You owe me a coke for making me spit mine out! :lol:

 

[CarlJ]

For the first week or so, I had many concerns and established my own personal maximums, minimums, and limitations. I shared them. I was attacked, labeled a doomsayer, etc.

We're building a skate park here in the little town where I live, and it's my most excitement we've had here since 1962 when Sally Miller's cow died. Anyway, I've been doing some aerial filming of the construction for the city, and in my rush to get out the door somehow missed this part of your post.

You've been a gentleman throughout this debate, and I want to thank you for the information you provided, I did read it. I think we found a lot of common ground, and I'm shocked and dismayed that ANYONE would attack you for being a responsible pilot. I'm very conflicted by the information you provided. I have to ask myself if I should be buying from a company that would engage in censorship of this sort. I'd like to give myself a pass and say that the Phantom was a Christmas gift, but in truth I knew what they were, and I could have returned it.

And in closing if all phantom pilots were like you, we'd have no need for restrictions, so I say thank god for ya.