Documents to avoid arrest / confiscation

[SilentAV8R]

Getting back on topic. ANother thought occurs to me. If you are flying for fun you might want to consider joining the AMA. Having a 2.5 million dollar liability policy to point to might help ease some worries of folks as well. It was AMA who pushed for the addition of Section 336 to the FAA reauthorization law. SO they are working for the hobbyist.

 

[fujitsuman]

HR658 was signed into law on 2/14/2012. You can see the entire bill as passed here: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112h ... 658enr.pdf

Thanks for the input. I tried to attach a 1-page version of the section in PDF, in case you want an easy copy to carry around with you. But the forum is giving me an error. Sorry.

 

[fujitsuman]

Getting back on topic. ANother thought occurs to me. If you are flying for fun you might want to consider joining the AMA. Having a 2.5 million dollar liability policy to point to might help ease some worries of folks as well. It was AMA who pushed for the addition of Section 336 to the FAA reauthorization law. SO they are working for the hobbyist.

That's a good point. On the subject, any one of us who can afford to can purchase a $2m liability policy from GEICO. Depending on your personal profile, and existing coverage, might be a low as $200.

 

[SilentAV8R]

Sec. 336 in jpeg format

 

[SilentAV8R]

Or just cut and paste this to print for yourself:


H.R. 658 – FAA MODERNIZATION AND REFORM ACT – February 2012

SEC. 336. SPECIAL RULE FOR MODEL AIRCRAFT.

(a) In General.--Notwithstanding any other provision of law relating to the incorporation of unmanned aircraft systems into Federal Aviation Administration plans and policies, including this subtitle, the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may not promulgate any rule or regulation regarding a model aircraft, or an aircraft being developed as a model aircraft, if--

(1) the aircraft is flown strictly for hobby or recreational use;

(2) the aircraft is operated in accordance with a community-based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization;

(3) the aircraft is limited to not more than 55 pounds unless otherwise certified through a design, construction, inspection, flight test, and operational safety program administered by a community-based organization;

(4) the aircraft is operated in a manner that does not interfere with and gives way to any manned
aircraft; and

(5) when flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport) with prior notice of the operation (model aircraft operators flying from a permanent location within 5 miles of an airport should establish a mutually-agreed upon operating procedure with the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport)).

(b) Statutory Construction.--Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit the authority of the Administrator to pursue enforcement action against persons operating model aircraft who endanger the safety of the national airspace system.

(c) Model Aircraft Defined.--In this section, the term ``model aircraft'' means an unmanned aircraft that is--

(1) capable of sustained flight in the atmosphere;

(2) flown within visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft; and

(3) flown for hobby or recreational purposes.

 

[fujitsuman]

Or just cut and paste this to print for yourself:


H.R. 658 – FAA MODERNIZATION AND REFORM ACT – February 2012

SEC. 336. SPECIAL RULE FOR MODEL AIRCRAFT.

(a) In General.--Notwithstanding any other provision of law relating to the incorporation of unmanned aircraft systems into Federal Aviation Administration plans and policies, including this subtitle, the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may not promulgate any rule or regulation regarding a model aircraft, or an aircraft being developed as a model aircraft, if--

(1) the aircraft is flown strictly for hobby or recreational use;

(2) the aircraft is operated in accordance with a community-based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization;

(3) the aircraft is limited to not more than 55 pounds unless otherwise certified through a design, construction, inspection, flight test, and operational safety program administered by a community-based organization;

(4) the aircraft is operated in a manner that does not interfere with and gives way to any manned
aircraft; and

(5) when flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport) with prior notice of the operation (model aircraft operators flying from a permanent location within 5 miles of an airport should establish a mutually-agreed upon operating procedure with the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport)).

(b) Statutory Construction.--Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit the authority of the Administrator to pursue enforcement action against persons operating model aircraft who endanger the safety of the national airspace system.

(c) Model Aircraft Defined.--In this section, the term ``model aircraft'' means an unmanned aircraft that is--

(1) capable of sustained flight in the atmosphere;

(2) flown within visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft; and

(3) flown for hobby or recreational purposes.

Thanks. I'm looking for something as official looking as possible. I guess I can export the PDF as a JPG - see attached.

 

[Hovtech]

I just show them my badge. http://www.hollywoodhistoryonline.c...51d16dd8c6e57fbdbdb838b9626.image.427x450.jpg

Funny!

 

[SilentAV8R]

I saved it and it looks pretty good. Nice official looking!! I'm printing a copy now to keep with me!!

 

[MILLER4PRESIDENT2020]

i just printed out 15 pages of whatever.
the purpose of these pages is not to put the idiot cop in his place, its to fool him long enough to come back in, pack up, and get the hell out of there before he can grab your information.

 

[fujitsuman]

i just printed out 15 pages of whatever.
the purpose of these pages is not to put the idiot cop in his place, its to fool him long enough to come back in, pack up, and get the hell out of there before he can grab your information.

If you hand most cops a 15 document, they won't even look at it. Plus, if they begin a line of questioning and you leave before they are finished, you could be in big trouble!

 

[MILLER4PRESIDENT2020]

i just printed out 15 pages of whatever.
the purpose of these pages is not to put the idiot cop in his place, its to fool him long enough to come back in, pack up, and get the hell out of there before he can grab your information.

If you hand most cops a 15 document, they won't even look at it. Plus, if they begin a line of questioning and you leave before they are finished, you could be in big trouble!

actually no, there are two things you need to ask a cop. am i being detained? am i free to go? If you are not being detained you are free to go on your way and are not required to present any ID unless you are driving a vehicle.

 

[Ronan87]

i just printed out 15 pages of whatever.
the purpose of these pages is not to put the idiot cop in his place, its to fool him long enough to come back in, pack up, and get the hell out of there before he can grab your information.

If you hand most cops a 15 document, they won't even look at it. Plus, if they begin a line of questioning and you leave before they are finished, you could be in big trouble!

actually no, there are two things you need to ask a cop. am i being detained? am i free to go? If you are not being detained you are free to go on your way and are not required to present any ID unless you are driving a vehicle.

Didn't that change? Something about the Patriot Act and having to carry ID around or something...

Don't quote me, been ages...

 

[fujitsuman]

i just printed out 15 pages of whatever.
the purpose of these pages is not to put the idiot cop in his place, its to fool him long enough to come back in, pack up, and get the hell out of there before he can grab your information.

If you hand most cops a 15 document, they won't even look at it. Plus, if they begin a line of questioning and you leave before they are finished, you could be in big trouble!

actually no, there are two things you need to ask a cop. am i being detained? am i free to go? If you are not being detained you are free to go on your way and are not required to present any ID unless you are driving a vehicle.

I'm guessing you're not in law enforcement. My father is a deputy sheriff, and I can promise you that things are not that black and white. Not to mention, requirement to present ID can vary from state to state and situation to situation. Regardless, your statement was to "fool him long enough...get the hell out of there before he can grab your information". That implies an attempt to evade, which I was saying could (notice I said "could", not "will") get you in trouble.

 

[MILLER4PRESIDENT2020]

I'm guessing you're not in law enforcement. My father is a deputy sheriff, and I can promise you that things are not that black and white. Not to mention, requirement to present ID can vary from state to state and situation to situation. Regardless, your statement was to "fool him long enough...get the hell out of there before he can grab your information". That implies an attempt to evade, which I was saying could (notice I said "could", not "will") get you in trouble.

no i am not in law enformcement, i am just a concerned citizen who doesnt not like seeing america turn into nazi germany. I have done hours and hours of research regarding the subject because honestly...I hate powertripping cops. 90% of them are decent people who just want a paycheck and to make the world a better place, and i respect them. The other 10% were bullied in high school and are taking out their vengeance with the world.

That being said, your father is obviously not going to expose his own weakness...a citizen who knows their rights. There is nothing saying that I have to carry an ID when I walk out my front door (unless I am going to drive a vehicle). So how can a cop demand my ID when I am not carrying one? How can a cop stop me for evading him if I am not being detained? I am not implying to run away from him, that is suspicious. If he gives you a hard time simply pack up your quad and ask him "am I being detained? am i free to go?" He will try and get you to answer a million other questions and avoid answering YOUR question. why? because as soon as he says "No you are not being detained", then you are free to walk away. Just keep asking those two questionss, do not say anything else. Dont even look into his eyes and let him sense your fear because it is scary the first time you talk back to a cop. Look off to the side and keep asking "am i being detained, am i free to go as many times as it takes to get him to say NO"

It is peoples defeatist attitude and the philosophy of accepting that this is the new norm with cops instead of fighting it, that has allowed America to slowly go down the tubes. Do your research people, it doesnt have to be like this.

 

[KG4MXV]

Most of these situations can be diffused with being calm, and compliant.

This is what I would do in a situation where a law officer has approached me while I am piloting.

I would politely ask if I could take a few moments to safely land the craft and then I will be more than happy
to give you 100% of my attention and provide you with what ever information you need.

Now having these documents could be helpful or detrimental.
I would say I have court documents showing that the FAA has no jurisdiction on my use of my UAV.
And before flying in a state I would find out if there were any local restrictions.
before I begun my flight.

A call to your local sherifs or police office on there non-emergency line would do wonders.
Be polite, you can get a lot further with honey than vinegar.

most of my flights are on commercial property like motels,
I always ask the manager on duty if it is ok to fly.

 

[SilentAV8R]

Last year I was flying a RC heli (Trex550) in a very large open field with no fence around it and no signs of any kind posted. I heard someone approaching from behind me. That person barked loudly for me to land IMMEDIATELY. Which I did. As I started to turn around he ordered me to stay still. He then walked around me at about 20 feet away to get in front of me. He was a cop from the local PD (city of 230,000 people).

He told me flying RC in his city was only legal at a recognized AMA club field. I asked him which city statue I was in violation of, for future reference.

He told me that the "law was the law". I once again asked him which law I was violating.

Then he told me I was on private property (which was true).

I acknowledged that fact but mentioned that there was no fence restricting access and there were no signs posted against trespassing. Plus I mentioned that people use the giant open field all the time for walking dogs, etc.

Once he saw that neither of his gambits would hold water he told me to leave immediately or he would place me under arrest for "disturbing the peace". WHich is cop-speak for "You've pissed me off and I'm going to totally Eff-up your day if you continue".

So I packed up and left. I called the PD community affairs person the next day and lodged a complaint. Nothing ever came of it.

So bottom line is you may or may not win by showing a cop they are wrong. But I'm going to err on the side of not spending a night in jail proving I am right.

 

[Ysanne]

Is it really that bad?

The few times I had to deal with the Polizei in Germany, the officers were always friendly, calm, deescalating and professional. No matter what problem or incident.

The only thing I take with me while flying is a proof of my model aircraft insurance.

 

[Great Pumpkin]

Ever since 9/11, rail fans have been harrassed by various authorities for taking photographs of trains, including threats of imprisonment and confiscation of camera and film. Here are two short exerpts from a column on the subject in the August 2013 issue of Trains Magazine that presents some parallels with the harrassment difficulties, both real and anticipated, by UAV pilots:

"In the months after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, a lot of panicky American institutions invoked new policies that did nothing more than attack the rights of Americans. They accomplished absolutely nothing, and bit by bit, cooler heads have mostly pulled back from this precipice. What these panicky and fearful people did post-9/11 was at least partly understandable, if dumb. In the railfan community, these “policies” mostly involved banning photography of trains and railroad facilities. These policies were clearly un-Constitutional and have repeatedly been knocked down in court."

One of the antagonists (that I've kept nameless here) "seems to think of itself as the victim of 9/11, but that is nonsense. The victim was the United States of America. Our USA has something called a Constitution that guarantees our rights, and the Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that those rights include the right to take pictures in public places and on public property – pictures of ANYTHING. The greatest thing the USA and its institutions can do to honor the victims of 9/11 is to jealously guard our rights."

The upshot of several opinion columns in Trains Magazine is just as has already been stated by several people in this thread: as long as you are in a public place, don't do anything dumb, be calm, be respectful, don't argue, ask politely if you are being detained, and ask if you are free to leave.

You may find it very instructive to read the safety code of the Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) at this website:
https://www.modelaircraft.org/files/105.pdf and then decide if you wish to join AMA and be covered by its $2,500,000 personal liability insurance coverage, $25,000 Medical Coverage-AD&D Policy ($10,000 Death Benefit), $1,000 Fire, Theft, and Vandalism coverage for $58 per year ($48 if you are over 65, junior members free), and right now AMA is offering a 25% discount on new memberships. Sounds like a good deal to me! http://www.modelaircraft.org/

 

[SilentAV8R]

I'm a long-time AMA member and think that for the hobby type Phantom operator it has a lot to offer. But with that comes a couple of restrictions.

ALL flights have to be within VLOS

http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/550.pdf

http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/540-D.pdf

http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/560.pdf

http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/570.pdf

http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/FPVFCC.pdf

The bottom line is follow FCC rules, don't be an idiot, and fly within sight of you Phantom. BLOS-FPV is not within their operating standards.

But, I am willing to bet anything that once the FAA gets it's rules out that any kind of BLOS flying will no longer be permitted for most of us, including many commercial operators. FAA will want eyeballs on aircraft type of flying. AMA already requires it for their members. If you want to do full blown FPV under AMA you need a spotter with eyeballs on aircraft (EBOA).

 

[fujitsuman]

Ever since 9/11, rail fans have been harrassed by various authorities for taking photographs of trains, including threats of imprisonment and confiscation of camera and film. Here are two short exerpts from a column on the subject in the August 2013 issue of Trains Magazine that presents some parallels with the harrassment difficulties, both real and anticipated, by UAV pilots:

"In the months after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, a lot of panicky American institutions invoked new policies that did nothing more than attack the rights of Americans. They accomplished absolutely nothing, and bit by bit, cooler heads have mostly pulled back from this precipice. What these panicky and fearful people did post-9/11 was at least partly understandable, if dumb. In the railfan community, these “policies” mostly involved banning photography of trains and railroad facilities. These policies were clearly un-Constitutional and have repeatedly been knocked down in court."

One of the antagonists (that I've kept nameless here) "seems to think of itself as the victim of 9/11, but that is nonsense. The victim was the United States of America. Our USA has something called a Constitution that guarantees our rights, and the Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that those rights include the right to take pictures in public places and on public property – pictures of ANYTHING. The greatest thing the USA and its institutions can do to honor the victims of 9/11 is to jealously guard our rights."

The upshot of several opinion columns in Trains Magazine is just as has already been stated by several people in this thread: as long as you are in a public place, don't do anything dumb, be calm, be respectful, don't argue, ask politely if you are being detained, and ask if you are free to leave.

You may find it very instructive to read the safety code of the Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) at this website:
https://www.modelaircraft.org/files/105.pdf and then decide if you wish to join AMA and be covered by its $2,500,000 personal liability insurance coverage, $25,000 Medical Coverage-AD&D Policy ($10,000 Death Benefit), $1,000 Fire, Theft, and Vandalism coverage for $58 per year ($48 if you are over 65, junior members free), and right now AMA is offering a 25% discount on new memberships. Sounds like a good deal to me! http://www.modelaircraft.org/

I agree that sounds like an excellent deal. However, rule B. #1 would be difficult (for me) to follow strictly - specifically because it includes structures. My assumption is that their insurance provider would look for any valid reason not to pay out in the case of a major claim, meaning literally every rule would have to be followed for 100% of any flight that results in a needed claim. I'd prefer to have separate liability coverage which is less specific in these circumstances, even though it's 3-4 times the cost.

Regardless, thank you for drawing attention to the AMA - just in reading the safety code I know it will improve how I fly.