DJI Mandatory, uninterruptible actions are wrong, legally actionable

There is NO logical reason to have the aircraft drop to ground/water/persons head/vehicle or what ever at the point the aircraft enters a NFZ. The craft should stop and the operator should be notified and be allowed to fly the craft in a direction away from the NFZ. To do otherwise defies logic.


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There is NO logical reason to have the aircraft drop to ground/water/persons head/vehicle or what ever at the point the aircraft enters a NFZ. The craft should stop and the operator should be notified and be allowed to fly the craft in a direction away from the NFZ. To do otherwise defies logic.


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Why don't you ask them?
 
...
You are flying around and unknowingly stray into a NFZ (according to DJI) - it's not on the FAA sites/maps or the apps. Perhaps a bug, who knows. But, suddenly: Landing Now. And right below you; a school yard filled with babies and here comes your four whirling blades of death right down into them. YOU didn't land there, the drone took over from you and did and gave you no recourse ...

There are two schools in my subdivision, and both airspaces above them are NFZs .... Of course, one can force the drone to move away before landing, kind of a third option for RTH.
 
There is NO logical reason to have the aircraft drop to ground/water/persons head/vehicle or what ever at the point the aircraft enters a NFZ. The craft should stop and the operator should be notified and be allowed to fly the craft in a direction away from the NFZ. To do otherwise defies logic.


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So you should be able to fly in a no fly zone as long as....
 
This thread is pointless. NFZ are there for a reason.

Go prove in a court DJI is liable and stop your whining...otherwise your not as right as you think.

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Dear DJI,

I have a couple of Phantom P4s and I love them; fly them daily as a hobbyist and am working towards becoming a FAA licensed UAS pilot. You have a great product, hardware, and software. Kudos!

An incident today and the hours since has given me time to reflect and come to a conclusion that I wanted to openly discuss before it becomes an issue you address in court as I feel some day you will.

UAS (drones) are being treated as serious devices by the FAA now. These are not toys anymore, we have legal obligations and can suffer real and serious fines and penalties for violating them. Not just No Fly Zones, but obligations regarding maximum altitude, VLOS requirements, day time flying rules, etc. The most important take-away from this paragraph is that we are now in the realm of regulated legal equipment and their pilots. When your hardware/software, that we MUST use in order to fly the device we purchased from you, FORCES us to break a law or travel in an unsafe way then we are FORCED to address this with you. Hopefully we can fix this in an open discussion before it becomes one where an attorney says, My client isn't at fault, his equipment MADE him do this, he had NO choice/control whatsoever.

ANYONE today can jump into ANY helicopter and airplane and take off ANYWHERE at ANYTIME and can fly ANYWHERE at ANY altitude ANY speed. Now, ALL of these things are regulated, there are laws that tell us what we cannot do, but we can physically do them (right or wrong is a legal issue). So, there are LAWS that prevent us from doing some of these things or combinations of things. In a regular airplane or helicopter, we must obey No Fly Zones and other Flight Restrictions, but it's up to the pilot to actually obey them. UAS pilots are learning about these things now with the classes and tests for UAS licenses. And we are expected to obey them, just as any other pilot. However; let's be clear; TONIGHT I can go jump in my buddy's airplane, not bother calling the tower, taxi and just take off right into other air traffic and point my nose at the White House and go flying over it. What's going to happen is I'll be noticed and someone will try to contact me. Likely I'll be intercepted. Certainly I'll be "talked to", perhaps prosecuted, perhaps go to jail and pay big fines. Etc Etc Etc. You know who does all that? The FAA and other police agencies. You know who does NOT do that? DJI or Cessna or Boeing or any other hardware or software maker.

On sophisticated aircraft there are warning devices and computers, they tell you if you are going to stall, if your fuel is low, if your flying too fast or slow or too high or low, if your gear is stuck down or up, if there are issues with other electronics aboard. You can be told that your gas tank has less than 1/8th gallon left as you take off for a transoceanic flight. Your GPS and compass can say it's not working as you barrel down the runway and you pull up into the wild blue yonder.

WHILE you are flying - you computer systems can tell you; "Hey, we are nearly out of fuel." and"HEY, We are REALLY low on fuel!" They can say, "GPS says we are in a no fly zone. or "HEY We Just Crossed Into An The Pentagons restricted air space!"
Here is what NO aircraft or helicopter will do: It will NOT TAKE CONTROL away and FORCE the vehicle to do something that you can do nothing but watch in horror as it occurs.

Imagine we got a 747 super low on fuel coming in to land at Chicago and Oh Oh, it's at 1% fuel remaining - so the auto pilot kicks in an Automatically Starts Landing in the middle of a school yard or into a football stadium or into the lake or into a fuel refinery or nuke plant. Or you are flying your helicopter and suddenly the GPS and Computer aboard announce, "You have just entered a no fly zone" - AND IMMEDIATELY just stop, hover, then begin to land on top of a large playground filled with children, or it immediately starts to land in the middle of a lake. And You Can DO NOTHING about it but sit there and die, possibly to you and your passengers own screaming deaths! And if you should survive then the FAA comes to kick your *** you'll be saying, "I didn't do it, the plane/helicopter just did it all by itself!"

Some might be saying, "You did something wrong." Perhaps; but you are not the judge or jury. And, what about emergencies? In an emergency you can land in NFZs, in an emergency you can go to whatever altitude you need. What if this is a genuine emergency - Oh No, I struck a bird and one engine is out I'm declaring an emergency landing at the nearest airport, Oh No that is a NFZ and I can't authorize GEO because no cell service DOWN DOWN DOWN you go and right into the path of another plane or crash landing on a freeway or top of some building or into a crowd of people.

My Point - Yes, We WANT and LOVE your automatic features. When I lose connection and you auto return me home - dude, awesome! But when it's partially back and I regain control, you let me resume flight. Cool
However, When the battery hits critical low you force me to land (except the small "trick" of keeping altitude by forcing the left stick up ... what if I NEED to go up and over a small obstacle before I make a 100% safe landing? Just like a plane pilot who's "Flying on Fumes, the gauge says empty but she's still flying so go baby go please! In DJI land, "Sorry, our sensor reads X%, down you go" and despite the fact that the craft is still flying , you force us down potentially damaging or destroying our craft and maybe hurting others or breaking the law. This is wrong.

Tonight - I took off in a familiar area and flew a familiar path. The familiar warning to call the helipad near me came up and I self-authorized because I had already called them, we know each other by now ;) Flying and doing just fine, all is well ---- then suddenly, "You Have Entered a No-fly Zone. Landing Now..."
Let's forget the "What NFZ?!" No time for that. I am a pilot and I am in charge of my craft. I have a fully flight capable craft and I am in contact with it, visually and electronically and it's working just fine. I've hit an invisible wall - right or wrong -- and being told I must not legally go further. Ok Ok I hear you and I have EVERY intention of NOT breaking the law and I'm perfectly happy to stop, and leave, hell, I'll even be happy to do a Return to Home. What I am NOT OK with is: And she just hovers then starts to drop. Gimbal downwards, AWESOME I'm coming down into a tree edged active roadway.

Here I watch helplessly as I go from legal to legally warned to screw-you-pilot, you going down and breakin' laws! Miraculously I do not hit a branch and she lands perfectly in the middle of the left lane. And I gimbal upwards to watch a car come right for her. Braking hard it doesn't hit. I'm already heading to my car with my partner and he drives as I'm watching on the screen someone stopping traffic, grabbing the drone and jumping in their car with it (lost signal). There are cars all around, whipping past him. He was endangered, they were endangered, my vehicle was endangered.
I get to the place and pull up just to survey the area. There is a car pulled over on the shoulder idling. I get out of my car and a dad and his son get out. And there's my drone. There are good people. They returned it to me. The father reporting he "practically had a heart attack" because it "practically landed on my roof" and then I was nearly rear-ended. I gave them all the cash I had as a reward and thanked them profusely.

DJI - YOU are at primarily fault here, not me. I didn't do anything wrong (to this moment I cannot find this NFZ on any map or app I have, starting with the official B4UFLY app and FAA websites but that's not the point of this message). It doesn't matter if I DID violate a NFZ and if I was technically therefore wrong and breaking a rule. I'll suffer that punishment if charged, that's my problem and my issues, not yours. YOU need to build good hardware and software that lets your craft fly properly and as much safety built in - BUT you cannot take control away from us when we need it, arguably, the most! TRY to imagine the scenarios I described above and you being Boeing or Cessna.

Any real world aircraft pilots: What if your aircraft just took over control and you could do NOTHING as it crashed into the ground? Think that flight system would be around long? Would the FAA even allow it to fly?

I think that DJI is WRONG, and I think they are even going to find themselves on the wrong end of a lawsuit soon enough, in having software that takes over control in a manner that cannot be overridden. Yes, put in your automatic features if you'd like but in ALL, repeat *ALL* cases, you MUST allow pilot overrides. We are the captain of our ships, what WE say goes when we're flying, NOT you. We are real pilots now with real law and penalties and therefore WE must ultimately be in FULL charge of our craft.

Summary and to repeat for full impact: DJI, The Pilot is Always in charge of his craft, completely and utterly. We MUST be able to override ANY automatic function. Period. I believe my desire is something you'll find legally necessary to protect yourselves and to protect our equipment and the public we fly over/around.

Sincerely,
db
I totally agree here you are responsible for the crafts actions at the end of the day. So you should have control of those actions at all times. even if you fly your craft till the battery is 0% and it shuts off mid flight and drops from the sky onto som ones brand new zo6 that was your choice you chose that path you will suffer those consequences.
 
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Look. It's a simple fix. AUTO RTH as soon as it hits a NFZ. So it makes a B-Line back home and won't go any farther into the NFZ. You can cancel the RTH but if you fly into the NFZ it just spins you around and does it again.

Don't force the thing to land in a NFZ. Make it act like a dog hitting an electric fence. Stop as if it hit a wall and B-line back to safety. It's not that hard


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As a licensed pilot with hundreds of hours under my belt, I just bought a P4P for my photography. I have flown MANY times through a NFZ with permission. I used to fly next to Beale AFB where active SR-71s were housed. I once had a fighter escort flying my Cessna 172 and it was awesome. I wanted to fly a certain route due to weather and they cleared me to penetrate the NFZ space. Now I would of never done that without permission as my license would of been revoked most likely and I would never fly again ( I always think the worst).

Had my plane been taken out of my control when I entered the air space, it would of been catastrophic as I was in full control as PIC, fully aware I was entering NFZ space in a military controlled section, and had communication while in the air when I knew I was going to need help to prevent me from getting into a special VFR clearance situation.
Everything was calm and fully under control. Taking away my control would of sent me into a massive emergency checklist situation, me calling a Mayday, squeaking my transponder that I was in an active emergency situation and notifying ARTCC of an active emergency meaning they would start clearing airspace and diverting traffic creating possible issues elsewhere. All because my manufacture decided I hit a NFZ and was in a better position taking over my aircraft in the blind and completely and "intentionally" putting my life and everyone in my path in an absolutely like or death situation. This is not debatable, it would be clearly recognized by a jury right or wrong that they took away my control. Remove your emotions and say "They intentionally took away the ability for me to control my aircraft".

I get my P4P this week and I am not near a NFZ but could be within a few miles. As PIC if I bust the space and get in trouble that's on me. It's my liability, and my responsibility for the safe operation on the aircraft. If my craft come down because a piece of software intentionally takes away control, this is a very clear defect in the software and no justification can win in court when it's clear the company INTENTIONALLY included a life threatening "safety feature". This is horrible and I would hope DJI evaluates this "functionality" and an extremely dangerous life threatening feature. Take out any emotions and look at the facts. I hope I never accidentally fly somewhere and cause this to happen.

I always check the TFRs before I fly but I am sure others do not. I would rather catch them violating space and take action after the fact, safety education required courses, and ensure they understand to never do that again, than jerk the control away from someone who is not trained to not panic and causes greater damage through lack of control rather than lack of enforcement. It will be interesting to see where this goes.

Safe flying everyone and check those TFRs before you fly :)



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This thread is pointless. NFZ are there for a reason.

Go prove in a court DJI is liable and stop your whining...otherwise your not as right as you think.

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"you're"

And, for the zillionth time, not asking to remove NFZs, demanding DJI change the software response when it hits one to something safer.


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I have not read the whole thread but I share these concerns. I don't think at any point the craft should take over control. The pilot should always have final authority. If you haven't already please, post this in the forum on rcgroups:

Official DJI GEO System - News, Public Beta and information - RC Groups

Brendan and others are on there and read the thread. Prepare to get shot down but it is important that you add your voice to the discussion. It is often a response that no one cares about the way it currently works and so if more people speak up, that position may be reconsidered.
 
Look. It's a simple fix. AUTO RTH as soon as it hits a NFZ. So it makes a B-Line back home and won't go any farther into the NFZ. You can cancel the RTH but if you fly into the NFZ it just spins you around and does it again.

Don't force the thing to land in a NFZ. Make it act like a dog hitting an electric fence. Stop as if it hit a wall and B-line back to safety. It's not that hard


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Even simpler.
Just stop.
Let the pilot control his craft and decide what to do. Can't go further in, but it would be up to the pilot to decide where else to go. Safer, logical and consistent with the real world.


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Even simpler.
Just stop.
Let the pilot control his craft and decide what to do. Can't go further in, but it would be up to the pilot to decide where else to go. Safer, logical and consistent with the real world.


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Like others said. You can't let it be places it shouldn't be. It's certainly not going in Harms way by saying "Entering No Fly Zone, Returning home" and it goes to its safe height and goes home.

Pilot gets the drone. Everyone is safe. RTH can be canceled once out of the NFZ, and NFZ isn't violated.

You've gotta give the NFZ some leeway. It's there for a reason and if it's a glitch or something it can be fixed by reporting it.

I agree it shouldn't auto land where it sits. It's a terrible and dangerous idea but take what graces you can if they did decide to change it to Auto-RTH


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Noooo... no one is suggesting ignoring or flying into NFZs, we're talking about what to do when one is reached and I'm suggesting a safer alternative than what it does now.

When people suggest the air craft should turn around and fly out of the NFZ that would be suggesting flying in a NFZ.

Forcing a landing is the closest thing to not flying in a NFZ.
 
I am late to this thread but have a response to the original post. True, most of the time the aircraft will not take over. It is up to the pilot, especially in the small planes like I fly. There are exceptions in the commercial airline world. This was unfortunate in at least one case.

The people on US Airways 1549 may not have ended up in the Hudson River had they been in a Boeing instead of an Airbus. The software shut down the engines in the Airbus due to vibration after the bird strikes. There was nothing that Captain Sully could do about it. He was at the mercy of the computer. The airliner became a glider. The Boeing would not have done this. The captain makes that decision. They only needed a few more minutes of power to make it across the river to the airport.

So to support your original post, the software contributed to the crash by limiting the pilot's options.
 
I'd like to remind readers of the original scenario, and small update:

I didn't it intentionally fly into a NFZ. I respect NFZs and why they exist.

I was flying in an area I'd flown before and with no warning of any kind I was suddenly inside a NFZ that appeared erroneously. I was forced to land, missing cars and people. My drone endangered civilians, property and itself.

Instead, had it simply stopped.
Just stopped and hovered and prevented me from going a few more feet, and allowed me to resume controlled flight in any other direction. ALL of this would be avoided. And, we are talking about a penetration of this "NFZ" of 10 feet or less!

I've since been back to this very spot. I have flown this same spot. I have flown the same route. The error must have been fixed because it doesn't show up anymore.

Auto RTH would be fine, if not the best solution.


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I'd like to remind readers of the original scenario, and small update:

I didn't it intentionally fly into a NFZ. I respect NFZs and why they exist.

I was flying in an area I'd flown before and with no warning of any kind I was suddenly inside a NFZ that appeared erroneously. I was forced to land, missing cars and people. My drone endangered civilians, property and itself.

Instead, had it simply stopped.
Just stopped and hovered and prevented me from going a few more feet, and allowed me to resume controlled flight in any other direction. ALL of this would be avoided. And, we are talking about a penetration of this "NFZ" of 10 feet or less!

I've since been back to this very spot. I have flown this same spot. I have flown the same route. The error must have been fixed because it doesn't show up anymore.

Auto RTH would be fine, if not the best solution.


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Or even "auto-exit" the NFZ by reverse flying the same path you entered from - and then relinquish control back to the operator.

Like you said - it was an error condition that allowed you to enter the NFZ in the first place (real or not). Most of the time, the drone should simply refuse to enter - but in the rare situations where all of a sudden the drone finds itself already inside an NFZ - it should be programmed to leave the way it came. Landing in place is stupid.


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Flawed NFZs:
(A little on and off topic)
The other day I went with a client to get some stills and video of a penthouse suite for sale atop a 22 story building in the city. Perfect for us was that almost direct opposite from the corner the suite was a open parking lot. Between was barely trafficked street (closed for construction) and a small street divider. No rule issues.

I knew this spot would be ok I'd flown from that lot before to capture a couple of interesting abandoned buildings near it.

Pulled up with client in car, fired up that P4 all proud and showing off the POV in the Go software as it was acquiring says and Warming Up.

Suddenly: "Cannot take off"
Weird... there is a helipad some distance away and I'd already done my usual calling and leaving a message with them. About 25% of the time I'll get a warning via GEO that I can confirm I have permission to fly and off I go.

This time, I got the red "Cannot take off" message and clicking on it for more info revealed nothing. Went online, checked for TFRs, checked B4UFly, checked other sources. Nothing. Ended up turning GEO off and flying my daylight VLOS mission with extra care and left.

Returned there two days later and for grins tried to boot up just to check: sure enough, absolutely no earnings or issues to take off.

Given that DJIs implementation of the existence and validity of their NFZs is flawed, it's even more important that we shouldn't be forced to lose control avoiding a non-existent concern.


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To carry this line of thinking a little further...... the F.A.A. regulations for pilots of "regular" aircraft state in bold print "The pilot in command has the SOLE responsibility for the safety of the flight". This was emphasized during my pilot training. I used to get into debates with the air traffic controllers once in a while about who is in charge. They hated it when I cited this regulation!

My stance is that if drones are considered aircraft, then I assume all of the liability of the flight. If this is the case, then I should have complete control over the flight. I am no longer liable when the software takes away my control.
 
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