Bellagio Water Fountain Show, Vegas Police Show Up For UFO!

[ianwood]

Re: Bellagio Water Fountain Show, Vegas Police Show Up For U

The worst they'll say is I can't fly there and make me land it, I'll get back with you tomorrow and let you know how it went.

No. I don't think that is the worst case. The worst case is you create an incident that makes national press. It may seem like you can go fly your Phantom wherever you want but that is simply not the case. How are the police to know you don't have something inside the Phantom that could pose a threat? They aren't going to be as nice as the LVPD. I would guess if you are within a mile of any sensitive areas, you will not only get stopped, you will get in trouble. It's not worth the risk.

 

[FlyHighPhoto]

Re: Bellagio Water Fountain Show, Vegas Police Show Up For U

I plan on visiting Washington DC this weekend to get some footage of the monuments, and buildings around town, and am not concerned about being arrested there either.

Good luck with that. The majority of DC is an FAA no fly zone. Vegas PD might have been coordial to you but DC & the feds won't be.Make sure family and/or friends bring bail money...

LOL! If I get arrested for taking pictures of monuments with a toy helicopter, this says so much more about them then it does me. Do we really live in a country with such a police state, and under a government that fears it's own people that much that they're going to arrest an innocent tourist taking pictures of national monuments? Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? I did say I was going to go around to monuments and take pictures, not anything nefarious.

Jeez, why is everyone so afraid of the police here on this forum. The absolute worst they'll do is tell me no I can't fly it there and tell me to leave, which I will, THAT'S IT.

 

[FlyHighPhoto]

Re: Bellagio Water Fountain Show, Vegas Police Show Up For U

The worst they'll say is I can't fly there and make me land it, I'll get back with you tomorrow and let you know how it went.

No. I don't think that is the worst case. The worst case is you create an incident that makes national press. It may seem like you can go fly your Phantom wherever you want but that is simply not the case. How are the police to know you don't have something inside the Phantom that could pose a threat? They aren't going to be as nice as the LVPD. I would guess if you are within a mile of any sensitive areas, you will not only get stopped, you will get in trouble. It's not worth the risk.

No, it absolutely is worth the risk. The blood which was spilled in order for these monuments to be erected in the first place is enough of a reason for me to do this. I realize how police can misjudge a situation at first glance, and I'm not going out looking for a confrontation with anyone, I'm really just trying to capture what makes this country so great with my camera, that is all. I really am not looking for trouble all jokes aside. I respect LE enough to listen to them if they tell me I can't do it, but no matter what is said on these forums, and no matter how much people try and talk me out of it, until I'm told that I can't fly it by a law enforcement officer, I'm going to exercise my freedom.

 

[ianwood]

Re: Bellagio Water Fountain Show, Vegas Police Show Up For U

No, it absolutely is worth the risk. The blood which was spilled in order for these monuments to be erected in the first place is enough of a reason for me to do this. I realize how police can misjudge a situation at first glance, and I'm not going out looking for a confrontation with anyone, I'm really just trying to capture what makes this country so great with my camera, that is all. I really am not looking for trouble all jokes aside. I respect LE enough to listen to them if they tell me I can't do it, but no matter what is said on these forums, and no matter how much people try and talk me out of it, until I'm told that I can't fly it by a law enforcement officer, I'm going to exercise my freedom.

I admire your enthusiasm and patriotism but there's a difference between exercising your freedom and doing what you know may cause a problem. You should at the very minimum contact the DC police before you go ahead and tell them where you intend to fly and what safety precautions you are taking. I am sure they will tell you if it is allowed or not. My guess is the latter.

 

[EMCSQUAR]

Re: Bellagio Water Fountain Show, Vegas Police Show Up For U

LOL! If I get arrested for taking pictures of monuments with a toy helicopter, this says so much more about them then it does me. Do we really live in a country with such a police state, and under a government that fears it's own people that much that they're going to arrest an innocent tourist taking pictures of national monuments? Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? I did say I was going to go around to monuments and take pictures, not anything nefarious.

Jeez, why is everyone so afraid of the police here on this forum. The absolute worst they'll do is tell me no I can't fly it there and tell me to leave, which I will, THAT'S IT.

You obviously haven't heard of the Team Blacksheep. You ought to read up on them before you fly DC. In short, they were flying innocently in and around DC, had their quad(s) conficated and are in a major battle with feds.

But wait, you know better, you flew Vegas and even mock police who asked you not to fly over strip - IE: "cop flinched like he was going to shoot Phantom" - that was your quote on YouTube right - Tidy Vac?

You don't need to respond, I'll just watch for you in the papers...

 

[fcat]

Re: Bellagio Water Fountain Show, Vegas Police Show Up For U

Let me know when you're around in DC i wanna come watch them get ya!

Believe me, i live just outside and work in DC and have seen cops arresting tourists for just setting up a tripod in the wrong place! should it happen ? im not sure, but it does. DC law enforcement are not a force to be reckoned with.

 

[OI Photography]

Re: Bellagio Water Fountain Show, Vegas Police Show Up For U

The FAA's exclusion zone for DC extends beyond the city limits and out to the beltway, and specifically restricts the following:

A. THE FOLLOWING OPERATIONS ARE NOT AUTHORIZED WITHIN THE DC FRZ: FLIGHT TRAINING, AEROBATIC FLIGHT,
PRACTICE INSTRUMENT APPROACHES, GLIDER OPERATIONS, PARACHUTE OPERATIONS, ULTRA LIGHT, HANG GLIDING,
BALLOON OPERATIONS, TETHERED BALLOONS, AGRICULTURE/CROP DUSTING, ANIMAL POPULATION CONTROL FLIGHT
OPERATIONS, BANNER TOWING OPERATIONS, MAINTENANCE TEST FLIGHTS, MODEL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS, MODEL
ROCKETRY, FLOAT PLANE OPERATIONS, UNMANNED AIRCRAFT SYSTEMS (UAS) AND AIRCRAFT/HELICOPTERS
OPERATING FROM A SHIP OR PRIVATE/CORPORATE YACHT.

(Bold was added by me)

More info in the links in this post: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8506&p=71347&hilit=+violated#p71337

The full document there also outlines what the LEO's may do in response to violations. Test at your own risk.

 

[FlyHighPhoto]

Re: Bellagio Water Fountain Show, Vegas Police Show Up For U

LOL! If I get arrested for taking pictures of monuments with a toy helicopter, this says so much more about them then it does me. Do we really live in a country with such a police state, and under a government that fears it's own people that much that they're going to arrest an innocent tourist taking pictures of national monuments? Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? I did say I was going to go around to monuments and take pictures, not anything nefarious.

Jeez, why is everyone so afraid of the police here on this forum. The absolute worst they'll do is tell me no I can't fly it there and tell me to leave, which I will, THAT'S IT.

You obviously haven't heard of the Team Blacksheep. You ought to read up on them before you fly DC. In short, they were flying innocently in and around DC, had their quad(s) conficated and are in a major battle with feds.

But wait, you know better, you flew Vegas and even mock police who asked you not to fly over strip - IE: "cop flinched like he was going to shoot Phantom" - that was your quote on YouTube right - Tidy Vac?

You don't need to respond, I'll just watch for you in the papers...

So after reading your post here on Team Black Sheep, I conducted a Google investigation of my own and can find absolutely NOTHING about them getting a bird confiscated by DCPD. Can you please source this, or your full of it.

They would have absolutely 0 legal right to take my quadcopter from me, unless I was flying in a dangerous manner, or were to hit a building or person, which they could then confiscate it as evidence I suppose. If a crime is not being committed, and nobody is in immediate danger, they absolutely may not touch my property without my consent.

Law Enforcement Officers jobs are exactly that , LAW ENFORCEMENT, meaning enforcing laws on the books already, they have absolutely 0 power to create laws on the fly on a case by case basis. Of course I'll bring a GoPro for on the ground with me, just in case they do try something stupid like enforcing a law that doesn't exist. I assure you that any officer that illegally confiscates my property will be seeing me again in court when I sue the agency involved, having a video copy of the entire event for a judge or jury to see for themselves.

 

[Shrimpfarmer]

Re: Bellagio Water Fountain Show, Vegas Police Show Up For U

Oh well, thought I might contribute my thoughts. I was a cop for thirty years and whilst we don't have as many guns as you do in the United States we do have the same aversion to risk.

So granted flying your quad in front of one of your remote memorials may just get you a slap on the wrist. Flying it anywhere near members of your government may well get you killed. I have little interest in the justification that may be going on in your mind I just concern myself with what's going through the minds of the officers whose job it is to protect them and the general public.

Now imagine you suffer some malfunction and your quad starts drifting towards something more sensitive. As far as they are concerned your quad represents a threat. Now are they going to let you drift across their VIP targets or are they going to drop you and your quad. You might not like that if they did but I reckon the overwhelming public opinion would be you got everything you deserved, especially as you now know there is a no flight zone from the ground up for everyone, and that includes you.

 

[OI Photography]

Re: Bellagio Water Fountain Show, Vegas Police Show Up For U

FlyHigh, there are specific restrictions on what you're thinking about doing. In case you missed it on the previous page:

The FAA's exclusion zone for DC extends beyond the city limits and out to the beltway, and specifically restricts the following:

A. THE FOLLOWING OPERATIONS ARE NOT AUTHORIZED WITHIN THE DC FRZ: FLIGHT TRAINING, AEROBATIC FLIGHT,
PRACTICE INSTRUMENT APPROACHES, GLIDER OPERATIONS, PARACHUTE OPERATIONS, ULTRA LIGHT, HANG GLIDING,
BALLOON OPERATIONS, TETHERED BALLOONS, AGRICULTURE/CROP DUSTING, ANIMAL POPULATION CONTROL FLIGHT
OPERATIONS, BANNER TOWING OPERATIONS, MAINTENANCE TEST FLIGHTS, MODEL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS, MODEL
ROCKETRY, FLOAT PLANE OPERATIONS, UNMANNED AIRCRAFT SYSTEMS (UAS) AND AIRCRAFT/HELICOPTERS
OPERATING FROM A SHIP OR PRIVATE/CORPORATE YACHT.

(Bold was added by me)

More info in the links in this post: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8506&p=71347&hilit=+violated#p71337

The full document there also outlines what the LEO's may do in response to violations. Test at your own risk.

 

[FlyHighPhoto]

Re: Bellagio Water Fountain Show, Vegas Police Show Up For U

Oh well, thought I might contribute my thoughts. I was a cop for thirty years and whilst we don't have as many guns as you do in the United States we do have the same aversion to risk.

So granted flying your quad in front of one of your remote memorials may just get you a slap on the wrist. Flying it anywhere near members of your government may well get you killed. I have little interest in the justification that may be going on in your mind I just concern myself with what's going through the minds of the officers whose job it is to protect them and the general public.

Now imagine you suffer some malfunction and your quad starts drifting towards something more sensitive. As far as they are concerned your quad represents a threat. Now are they going to let you drift across their VIP targets or are they going to drop you and your quad. You might not like that if they did but I reckon the overwhelming public opinion would be you got everything you deserved, especially as you now know there is a no flight zone from the ground up for everyone, and that includes you.

First of all, thank you for your service to your community, second, thank you for your unique insight as a former police officer, your reply was logical and thought provoking.

I do as much preventive measures before flight to lower the risk of a legendary "Phantom Fly-Away" happening to me, but your absolutely correct, you can never completely eliminate this risk.

If my Phantom were to lose control at any time and endanger anyone, VIP or not, I would actually be glad if a LEO were to shoot my quad down to eliminate the possibility of injuring or hurting someone.

Part of the reason it took me so long to do a chase from the car down the Strip with my Phantom, was specifically because of a nagging persistent fear of something unexpectedly happening during the flight, and someone getting injured. I would have a very difficult time sleeping at night if someone was injured as a direct result of my actions, but I'd take full responsibility for my actions.

I can imagine police officers who guard VIP people and property as on high alert for those who wish to do our country harm, and may be quicker to act on any perceived threat then other areas of the country.

Still, even after I've weighed these risks, the reward IMHO is worth it. Having said that, I absolutely will NOT fly anywhere near sensitive areas that might cause people to panic, as well as limiting my flight speeds and altitudes even lower then I usually do.

I will likely stick to The Jefferson, Lincoln, WW2, Korean, Vietnam memorials to try my best to avoid any VIP's or their security details.

Although.....The National Zoo is a stone throw away from the memorials, you guys think they'd let me in there with the Phantom?

 

[BadassBlaze]

Re: Bellagio Water Fountain Show, Vegas Police Show Up For U

They would have absolutely 0 legal right to take my quadcopter from me

I don't think you understand. Its a no-fly zone. So flying in a no-fly zone would be committing a crime. Which means they can arrest you. :roll:

 

[NMG318]

Re: Bellagio Water Fountain Show, Vegas Police Show Up For U

Anyone wishing to fly their Phantoms (UAVs) near Washington DC need to read the following (The Capitol, White House, Monuments, etc. are in the DC FRZ):

http://www.faa.gov/news/media/sfra_flight_advisory.pdf

SUMMARY:

Page 2 states (pay particular attention to item C....I spent 11 years flying in the DC FRZ and they WILL NOT mess around)-

Pursuant to 49 USC 40103(b), the FAA has established the DC SFRA area as ‘National
Defense Airspace’. Any person who does not comply with the requirements applicable to
the DC SFRA may be intercepted, detained and interviewed by law enforcement and or
security personnel. Any of the following additional actions may also be taken against a
pilot who does not comply with the requirements, special instructions and procedures
announced in this NOTAM:

A) The FAA may take administrative action, including imposing civil penalties
and the suspension or revocation of airmen certificates;
B) The United States Government may pursue criminal charges, including charges
under Title 49 of the United States Code, Section 46307;
C) The United States Government may use deadly force against the airborne
aircraft, if it is determined that the aircraft poses an imminent security threat.

Page 4 states:

Section 4. Operating in the DC FRZ. 
Additions to Operating in the DC FRZ 14 CFR Section 93.341. All Operations are prohibited within
the FRZ (including transit) unless outlined below:

a. The following operations are not authorized within the DC FRZ: flight training, aerobatic
flight, practice instrument approaches, glider operations, parachute operations, ultra light,
hang gliding, balloon operations, tethered balloons, agriculture/crop dusting, animal
population control flight operations, banner towing operations, maintenance test flights,
model aircraft operations, model rocketry, float plane operations, Unmanned Aircraft Systems
(UAS) and aircraft/helicopters operating from a ship or private/corporate yacht.


They really don't mess around:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/03/politics/ ... ting-main/

 

[BadassBlaze]

Re: Bellagio Water Fountain Show, Vegas Police Show Up For U

Highflyphoto, I see you deleted your post saying that it doesn't apply to RC helicopters. I guess you saw the post right above you that said the no fly zone applies model aircraft and unmanned aerial vehicles...

 

[FlyHighPhoto]

Re: Bellagio Water Fountain Show, Vegas Police Show Up For U

Thanks NMG for that information. I will definitely consider whether or not a flight is really worth it. It seems pretty black and white now to me after reading your post that model aircraft are specifically included in the no-fly zone which I previously wasn't aware of.

I would be willfully breaking the law it seems, which is definitely causing me to reconsider this flight.

On a side note, I think it's funny that you compared Miriam Carey's incident to mine. She didn't deserve to die for her actions, but her actions that day caused many to panic, I certainly would not act a fool, or fly in a reckless manner to cause panic.

 

[FlyHighPhoto]

Re: Bellagio Water Fountain Show, Vegas Police Show Up For U

So it seems these rules and regulations are for everyone but the federal government. Do as I say, not as what I do. Very helpful article nonetheless, thanks again for sharing.

a. DOD owned and operated aircraft may operate at ADW or DAA without an FAA/TSA waiver and are responsible for the security of their aircraft, crew and passengers.
b. Federally owned and operated aircraft may operate at ADW or DAA without an FAA/TSA waiver. These approved government operators are responsible for the security of their aircraft, crew and passengers and are required to notify the FAA NCRCC one hour prior to departure at 866-598-9522. .

 

[Visioneer]

Re: Bellagio Water Fountain Show, Vegas Police Show Up For U

With all the discussion that's gone on (here and elsewhere) regards what laws there are or aren't, I felt compelled to check out the referenced law 49 USC 40103(b) in NMG318's post. Here's an excerpt:



It seems clear here that the legislature has charged the FAA to "develop plans and policy" and "assign by regulation or order" all manner of requirements regards the use of US airspace. This seems pointless if their plans, policies, regulations, and orders are not enforceable. So I'm guessing there are "laws" elsewhere which define the process they must follow to make such directives enforceable, and the notion that what's been published to date is not enforceable is because this process has not been followed regards those UAV related documents.

On the general front ...

While I understand FlyHighPhoto's position on "freedom", I'm reminded of a quote from my active engineering days, "In theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice, they are not". When law enforcement officers are presented with a situation that carries the potential for threat, they often do not have the luxury of waiting to see if the threat is real. If they wait, and the unimaginable happens, it'll be said they didn't do their job. So they're virtually duty bound to intercede in any situation that MIGHT present a threat. Without doing so, they have no way to know that your "toy helicopter" isn't packed full of C4 (maybe not a likely threat in LV, perhaps not so outlandish in DC). There is the option that they can check you out and, if "clean", let you go on your way. Perhaps doable ... when there's one of you. Not doable when there's ten or a hundred of you. In many (all?) jurisdictions it simply isn't feasible to have enough LEOs in place to check out every situation that has the appearance of a potential threat. So there are laws, recommendations, warnings, etc. which forbid, or at least discourage, situations which may disguise a threat. That means there's fewer to check out. I expect that was the case in LV. The LEOs weren't being pricks, they're just ahead of the legislators in recognizing that it WILL be unsafe if fifty guys are flying their quads down the boulevard every night ... so they're discouraging it. In fact, if they keep it from happening, a law forbidding it may never get written - and that may be a good thing. Will Rogers once said something to the effect that we ought not complain when congress does nothing, it's when they start doing things that we need to be afraid.

And while FlyHighPhoto's efforts to minimize risk to others is commendable, the very fact of his one flight's failure gives evidence that such is necessary ... and still may be inadequate. Those little whirly things on a Phantom will slash through flesh in a heartbeat. They do present a threat (even without the C4 load).

One might counter that cars present a much more significant threat, and they're everywhere. The difference is that cars have to meet defined safety standards, and they must be licensed, and there are clear rules regards their operation; and operators are educated & tested on the rules, and must demonstrate at least a minimum physical ability to operate a car before they are allowed (licensed) to do so. I hope we don't get to that point with regard to piloting model aircraft, but I can easily see it happening. It won't really bother me, but I'd prefer to avoid the hassle.

A personal observation is that all the brouhaha that's arising over UAVs of late is the simplification of their operation AND their marriage with cameras. UAVs in the guise of fixed wing and helicopter RC models have been around for years without much public notice. Flying them took some dedication to learn the required skills, and they were largely operated only "in the countryside" or at designated flying fields, i.e., out of the public's view. But now most anyone can fly one and, with cameras, folks want to fly them everywhere and anywhere there's a new vista to be captured. I wish I were wrong, but I don't see how this can go on "uncontrolled" without end.

A final thought on "freedom". The classic "American Love Rock War Comedy-Drama" Musical from 1969 (Hair) had a line in it that stuck with me, "Kids, be whoever you are, do whatever you want to do, just so long as you don't hurt anybody". It's that last phrase that often seems overlooked.

 

[Visioneer]

Re: Bellagio Water Fountain Show, Vegas Police Show Up For U

So it seems these rules and regulations are for everyone but the federal government. Do as I say, not as what I do. Very helpful article nonetheless, thanks again for sharing.

a. DOD owned and operated aircraft may operate at ADW or DAA without an FAA/TSA waiver and are responsible for the security of their aircraft, crew and passengers.
b. Federally owned and operated aircraft may operate at ADW or DAA without an FAA/TSA waiver. These approved government operators are responsible for the security of their aircraft, crew and passengers and are required to notify the FAA NCRCC one hour prior to departure at 866-598-9522. .

The difference being that the Federal Government has all manner of rules, regulations, certifications, training, and command & control structure covering their aircraft and crews. "Everyone else" does not.

 

[NMG318]

Re: Bellagio Water Fountain Show, Vegas Police Show Up For U

Thanks NMG for that information. I will definitely consider whether or not a flight is really worth it. It seems pretty black and white now to me after reading your post that model aircraft are specifically included in the no-fly zone which I previously wasn't aware of.

I would be willfully breaking the law it seems, which is definitely causing me to reconsider this flight.

On a side note, I think it's funny that you compared Miriam Carey's incident to mine. She didn't deserve to die for her actions, but her actions that day caused many to panic, I certainly would not act a fool, or fly in a reckless manner to cause panic.

I wasn't necessarily comparing you to Carey's incident and more importantly I am not judging the police's response to her actions. I was merely pointing out that they did respond in a very security sensitive area to what they thought was a threat (right or wrong) and she is dead.

 

[NMG318]

Re: Bellagio Water Fountain Show, Vegas Police Show Up For U

So it seems these rules and regulations are for everyone but the federal government. Do as I say, not as what I do. Very helpful article nonetheless, thanks again for sharing.

a. DOD owned and operated aircraft may operate at ADW or DAA without an FAA/TSA waiver and are responsible for the security of their aircraft, crew and passengers.
b. Federally owned and operated aircraft may operate at ADW or DAA without an FAA/TSA waiver. These approved government operators are responsible for the security of their aircraft, crew and passengers and are required to notify the FAA NCRCC one hour prior to departure at 866-598-9522. .

The difference being that the Federal Government has all manner of rules, regulations, certifications, training, and command & control structure covering their aircraft and crews. "Everyone else" does not.

Very good point, and more importantly than anything, the crews and aircraft operating from these areas have been thoroughly vetted and don't pose a security threat.