AP article new drone panel & privacy DJI refused to sign

News organizations are exempt from the guidelines on free-press grounds.

Imagine that! I claim the same First Amendment right too.

You already have that right... assuming you're a news organization. If you publish a newspaper, or even a news blog, you're good. You can't park in a loading zone either, unless of course you've got business plates and are making a pickup or delivery :)
 
Russ,

What is correct is that you do not have ownership of the air above your land. Some of it, probably, but certainly not all. Even the first article you reference says that the ownership of air above your property was before the advent of air craft. That is well before either of us (or our fathers) owned land. Your second article (I didn't know you would go all "Wikipedia" on me) says that our rights were limited to what we could reasonably use. That seems relevant here. I own a couple of acres of property and the FAA has told me I have to comply with their regulations, and I do comply, once I get a foot off the ground, over my own property.

I'll see if I can find a link to the legislation we have here.

The FAA has limited our ceiling and I understand the thought process. I also would understand preventing these UAVs from being weaponize in federal regulations. Everything else should be more local so it fits with community standards.

If your community is concerned about the "buzzing" from 50 drones flying over your desert property, address the noise, not the flight. Please remember that not all UAV make any noise at all. These regs apply to RC glider planes, RC airships etc. Not just multi-rotors. And the multi-rotors will get quieter if they are legislated like this. Just like cars did. #Don't hate the drone, hate the noise.

If your community is concerned with the privacy issues, address the use of cameras, not the flight. By the way, I could peep into most people's back yards without flying over their property if I was so inclined. The higher I get, the less privacy fences work. I promise not to check out Tink's daughters though. #Don't hate the drone, hate the peeping.

If your community is concerned about the safety, address flying over people, or parades, or whatever the issue is. # Don't hate the drone, hate the injury.

I have a neighbor who is a MC guy. His kids ride dirt bikes, he rides a HD (apparently without any mufflers). The noise from this certainly disturbs my peaceful use of my property but too bad. He has a right to have them running up to a certain Db during certain hours (can't specify). Same goes for power tools, lawn gear etc.

BTW, thanks for using he/she with a singular subject. It drives me nuts when people use singular subject with plural pronoun. No joke. Thanks!
 
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Hmm in Northern Cali we already have completed lawsuits for the tort of
"intrusion on seclusion"(ie invasion of privacy in laymans terms)

The following what I have been directly informed of via practicing attorneys familiar with DOT/FAA laws and regulations.(and its only true for the immediate present).
none of this should be in ANY way construed as any form of legal advice.. it is NOT its simply a statement of some present issues that apply to the usage of the NAS by unmanned aerial systems.

Trespass is NOT possible in US Airspace because of the enabling acts of the FAA ie the "Federal Aviation Act of 1958" which has as the basis for its legality the Commerce Clause of the US Constitution.


ie the FED owns ALL airspace from the ground up, period.. this is established law in both statute and case.
State laws nor local have zero legal jurisdiction over federal airspace at the present time .
same for ANY agency except for the DOT whose responsibility it is legally to administer the NAS.
NPS can only prevent you from using the lands NPS administer's for takeoffs and landings.. takeoffs and landing NOT on NPS property but overflights over NPS properties are the FAA's and at present legal.

Plenty of real attorneys have already weighed in on this issue since the FAA formed.. drones DONT change the federal sovereignty over US airspace.

Brendan Schulman Esc (@dronelaw) a drone flying attorney intimately familiar with the issues being discussed is reportedly of similar opinions..

hzl
ps IANAL but I have lots of lawyers as friends/family/workmates :)
I suspect we are due for a round of confusing court cases that will muddy these waters further.
 
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Brendan Schulman is now Vice President of Policy and Legal Affairs at DJI.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendanschulman


yes I had heard that..
may explain recent events...

and given the security market potential for robotic aerial drones as observation points I can well under stand..

HOWEVER.. being the contradictory bastard that I happen to be I do want to bring up "Southpark S19E05 - The Magic Bush" as one possible counter example for those who have dreams of automated security/neighborhood watch like I do..
and I suspect its onrushing in spite of "guidelines"(wont work) that the drone future indeed WILL look somewhat like that eventually or perhaps this
?



hzl
 
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My understanding is that property ownership, at least in the USA, includes the right to the peaceful and quiet enjoyment of that property, so model aircraft buzzing overhead may violate that lawful right.

Property ownership also extends above and below the surface of the ground. In terms of air space, up to the limits set by the FAA a property owner owns the air space above his /her property. Entering into a person's private air space is trespassing. Always has been.
Nothing new about this.

Besides the above, a drone falling on somebody's head could injure them. One falling onto a roadway could trigger an accident. You can't fly in National Parks or in my area the Regional Parks. They don't want drones buzzing around when people are trying to enjoy the peace and quiet of nature which is what parks are about. There are good reasons besides privacy for not flying over people, private property, roadways, etc. I find it frustrating and limiting but it is what it is.


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That's not 100% accurate. You don't own the airspace above your home, any more then you own the dirt, or property underneath. Have you ever bought a home, in the USA? There are completely separate liens for "mineral rights". So, ok you may own them, if your lien was set up that way, or your like 98% of people who do not have access to their own property underneath topsoil level. Same as airspace, one cannot ban an aircraft from flying over their property, it's not realistic.


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yes I had heard that..
may explain recent events...

and given the security market potential for robotic aerial drones as observation points I can well under stand..

HOWEVER.. being the contradictory bastard that I happen to be I do want to bring up "Southpark S19E05 - The Magic Bush" as one possible counter example for those who have dreams of automated security/neighborhood watch like I do..
and I suspect its onrushing in spite of "guidelines"(wont work) that the drone future indeed WILL look somewhat like that eventually or perhaps this
?



hzl
I love all southpark episodes. Remain funny and hip. We are still pretty far from that video, mostly on the AI aspect tho, the flying part is basically put together, however it will take much larger machines then an inspire, it's the software that needs to be strengthened.


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It seems you contradict yourself. First you say that "The assumption that private property ownership gives you a right to the airspace and underground resources is not correct.". Then you say "In my home state, NV, we have legislation that makes it legal for you to fly over any private property over 250'. Under can be trespassing..." Yes, there are limits on air space rights that come with property ownership, but property ownership does come with ownership of airspace rights above the property owned.

Prosecution for trespass may require the filing of a complaint but the trespass exists whether or not a complaint is filed. If there was no trespass there would be no basis for a complaint. I'm not a lawyer, so there may be some fine points I do not understand, but this I can say for sure: if you don't fly over somebody's property you will have no liability for trespass. If you do fly over somebody's property you may.

Trespass comes in a variety of forms. You don't have to actually step on someone's property if you interfere with the quiet use and enjoyment of their property. Furthermore, it is not settled law as to what height above the ground you own. Whether you are a nuisance at 50 feet or 500 feet depends on the actual circumstances. It is a question of what is reasonable. You may be annoyed by someone flying over your property. The question is whether your level of annoyance is reasonable in the eyes of a court. That could depend on how loud your drone is.

As to whether you have a camera, this is an issue that came out when quality, inexpensive telescopes started to be used in cities. The answer is there is no reasonable expectation of privacy. This concept changes based on how common a new technology has become. You can put a telescope on your roof and photograph as far as you want without invading privacy. Stepping onto someone's property and looking through their windows is an invasion as the property owner has a reasonable expectation that it would not happen. Viewing from a public space is a different matter.

So, the question becomes how high above your property is public space versus private, is it a nuisance to a reasonable person and what expectation of privacy is there when the technology becomes more common. Right now, there is a dearth of court decisions on the matter and it will be some time before this is settled. It will not be settled by an argument on this forum and our personal opinions as to what is reasonable don't matter. There have been conflicting lower court rulings such as one where a phantom was shot down with a shotgun and the man was considered within his rights. There was another where a drone was shot down, probably at a greater height, where the shooter was not considered within his rights.

Only when we have rulings from the higher state and federal courts will we know the outcome.

I was out flying in front of my house the other day and my next door neighbor pulled out of her driveway and asked me if I was spying on her property. She said it in a friendly, joking way with a smile on her face. I assured her that I am usually over 200 feet and have to be a good 150 feet to make sure I get over the tall trees that are up on hill at the end of the street. She seemed ok with that and told me she thought it was a great hobby.

That's what it takes to get along in a neighborhood.
 
You guys might have seen this awhile back,
I share it with my neighbors on the email group called Next Door. So far no complaints & even a few thanks.

I also shared it with a local TV station when they started doing "teasers" about a lady that was worried about drones taking pictures of her son. TV dropped the subject after this.

I also share it on FB & other sites, so far it has kept the paranoid, quiet.
 
Russ,

What is correct is that you do not have ownership of the air above your land. Some of it, probably, but certainly not all. Even the first article you reference says that the ownership of air above your property was before the advent of air craft. That is well before either of us (or our fathers) owned land. Your second article (I didn't know you would go all "Wikipedia" on me) says that our rights were limited to what we could reasonably use. That seems relevant here. I own a couple of acres of property and the FAA has told me I have to comply with their regulations, and I do comply, once I get a foot off the ground, over my own property...

The OP seemed surprised that flying over private property without permission could be problematic. His term for it was "ouch". In my initial reply I merely meant to point out that real property owners have rights that extend above the ground into the air. Yes, as time has passed these rights have been modified to accommodate air travel, but real property owners still have rights extending above their property to whatever limits exist where the property is located.
 
States v. Causby 328 U.S. 256 (1946)

In 1946 drones were not foremost on the mind of a presiding judge. Safe to say he wasn't consumed by that thought during deliberation.

I have some small amount of familiarity with that case, but I'm not sure how you see that case has relevance in the context of this thread. Please explain your point of view.

That case was about a chicken farmer that couldn't use his property because military planes were flying so low. My understanding of the case is that the court ruled he had suffered compensable damages--in that sense he won the case, the court affiriming his rights--but that the case was remanded back to the lower court because it failed to address certain details. Wasn't this a Supreme Court case with a panel of judges that ruled as opposed to "a presiding judge"?
 
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...Trespass is NOT possible in US Airspace because of the enabling acts of the FAA ie the "Federal Aviation Act of 1958" which has as the basis for its legality the Commerce Clause of the US Constitution.

ie the FED owns ALL airspace from the ground up, period.. this is established law in both statute and case.
State laws nor local have zero legal jurisdiction over federal airspace at the present time ....

NPS can only prevent you from using the lands NPS administer's for takeoffs and landings.. takeoffs and landing NOT on NPS property but overflights over NPS properties are the FAA's and at present legal.

Very interesting stuff. Thanks. Makes me wonder...

On the subject of trespass in airspace, I wonder if that is separate from trespass to a real property owner who may be lawfully entitled to the enjoyment of his/her property. It's hard to imagine, for example, despite the fact that the federal government may own the airspace, that a property owner would have no redress should somebody hover a helicopter 5' above his/her rooftop. I mean, maybe the homeowner could not sue over an airspace issue but there may be other issues unrelated to airspace, per se.

As to the NPS (National Park Service), they can set any rules they want, of course. Whether or not those rules have any force in law might be another matter. Aviation: Unmanned Aerial Systems | U.S. National Park Service reads, in part "Each superintendent was directed 'to use the authority under 36 CFR 1.5 to close units of the National Park System to launching, landing, or operating [emphasis added] unmanned aircraft…' " I don't pretend to understand too awful much law. 36 CFR 1.5 (whatever that is) says, in part "...Closures and public use limits. ...based upon a determination that such action is necessary for the maintenance of public health and safety, protection of environmental or scenic values [emphasis added], protection of natural or cultural resources... Establish, for all or a portion of a park area, a reasonable schedule of visiting hours, impose public use limits, or close all or a portion of a park area to all public use or to a specific use or activity..." Taken with case law precedent regarding property owner's rights such as the Supreme Court case States v. Causby, this would seem as if it may be contrary to opinions saying the NPS cannot close parks to drone overflights. The NPS may have no say so as to the airspace itself, but how things that occur in that airspace effect the use of NPS lands may be separate. In other words, the NPS might not be able to tell us that we can't fly over the parks from the perspective of the use of airspace, but they might be able to stop people from flying because it interferes with the enjoyment of the parks by the public, poses a risk to the environment, etc. I am not saying which is right or wrong, what is or what isn't. I'm just taking it all in and speculating.

It's all very interesting and it seems to me an area of law that appears to be evolving rapidly. Googling around one comes across all manner of related tidbits, some such as http://www.bu.edu/bulawreview/files/2015/02/RULE.pdf from Boston University from which I quote these snipits: "The growing interest in domestic drones is drawing new attention to unresolved [emphasis added] questions regarding the scope of landowners’ rights in the airspace above their land." and "Existing aerial trespass and takings laws, which were formulated prior to the advent of modern drone technologies, are ill-equipped to handle conflicts between domestic drone operators and landowners. To establish claims under these laws, landowners generally must prove that an aircraft flew within the nebulous “immediate reaches” of the airspace above their parcels and substantially interfered with their use and enjoyment of their land. The indefinite nature of landowner airspace rights under these rules is already generating confusion and controversy [emphasis added], hindering growth in the fledgling domestic drone industry." I found the stuff on pages 166 through the top of 172 really interesting and informative.
 
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So I did some research on the NV law I posted a link to above. It is law, it is actionable, it just haven't been codefied yet. So, in NV if you are over 250' you are okay, unless you are doing tricks over people. Under 250' you can be cited for trespassing if an owner complains AND you have been previously notified by that owner that he does not want you flying over his property.
 
Yeah state law. That's the problem. It'll fragment if the federal government doesn't put a stop to it. The more it fragments via individual states interjecting their geographically biased opinions the longer it will take for the federal law to be respected across the country and the more 'sludge' cases will make their way into the court system.
 

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