Welcome to PhantomPilots.com

Sign up for a weekly email of the latest drone news & information

Airline Pilots tell Stories

Discussion in 'Phantom 2 Vision + Discussion' started by flyNfrank, Dec 5, 2014.

  1. flyNfrank

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2014
    Messages:
    4,220
    Likes Received:
    914
    Location:
    Indy, USA
    For at least the past two weeks the media reports that the FAA has had 41 Airline Pilots call in reports during the month of October about seeing UAV's. And 3 have said they had near misses as they were attempting to land.

    Come On Man!!!

    So what percentage of that BS do they think people are going to believe? So let's look at just one big fact. These pilots have been known to describe the color on a few of them. This is actually pushes anyone with common sense away from even taking them serious with any claims. So these pilots fly at what, 400, 500mph, and they are suppose to see a 15x15x8 inch figure washed out in the cloud back ground? Pitiful!

    It's just amazing all these negative reports but not the 1st picture or video clip of any type whatsoever that backs up their claims. :roll:
     
  2. msinger

    Approved Vendor

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2014
    Messages:
    18,988
    Likes Received:
    5,590
    Location:
    US
    A lot of those sightings were much higher than 400 feet above ground level too. And 400 feet above ground level is the max allowed by the FAA.

    Why are some people so irresponsible? I'm hoping a few bad apples don't ruin things for everyone.

    While that is true, from this forum alone, we do know there are plenty of people flying that high.
     
  3. Couchie

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2014
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Madisonville, KY
    Well I've got to chime in here a little.

    1) I can see the concern with an UAV near the approach end of an airport. While on approach, even large commercial airliners aren't going 400 -500 mph. At an average they are coming in at 110 - 130 TOPS. Even still, I agree, IF they saw an UAV, I find it hard to believe they'd be able to describe it in any detail.

    2) Being a pilot, not having had any close calls with one of these aircraft, I can't speak for the pilots reporting these close encounters.

    3) I know if I saw something of some danger in my flight path (in my airplane), I would take evasive action and put my self and my passengers in a safer situation. This doesn't matter if it is an UAV, a large bird, another airplane, an undocumented tower... what ever.

    4) FAR's (FAA Regulations) state that aircraft can not descend below 500' AGL over rural areas and 1,000' AGL over urban areas unless they are climbing out of the pattern, descending into a runway or landing area, in an emergency, or they are on some specific mission that requires them to be that low (Medical helicopters, crop dusting aircraft, etc.)

    One thing to note is that there is designated airspace around every airport that is 'off limits' to aircraft either not cleared by ATC, or not utilizing a radio to communicate with other pilots, or ensuring they stay clear of other aircraft. Each airport has different airspace clearances. Smaller, 'private' or municipal airports have a smaller 'footprint' than to the larger ones depending on the kinds of approaches authorized for the airport. I can certainly see a problem if an UAV pilot flies his/her craft into the approach path of an airport. ESPECIALLY if that aircraft is on an instrument approach. With some approaches, the pilot doesn't have to 'break out' of the clouds until 150' AGL. Now, put an UAV in that airspace while on approach and it certainly becomes a hazard.

    Since I find myself on both sides of the fence, I can only hope that my fellow UAV pilots take into serious consideration the local traffic patterns of airports near them and keep a good buffer zone away from those patterns.

    I have seen some videos of UAVs being in and above the clouds. I can't even begin to imagine, myself on an instrument approach, in the clouds 'legally' being assisted on my approach by both my plates and ATC watching over me and all of a sudden meeting an UAV at the bottom edge of the cloud bank! Not only that, but even VFR flights (Visual Flight Rules) must stay clear of the clouds 500' below, 1,000' above, and 2,000' horizontally in most classes of airspace. UAV pilots should adhere to those clearances as well! I don't think we have any business being above a cloud deck by any means.

    We as a flying community need to make sure we police ourselves and not put our aircraft in these situations. I am sure the FAA is going to come out with some very clamping rules for us in the near future. I have followed the topic in all the aviation magazines, read the different proposals, and am waiting to see what they come up with. Often in the aviation world, you'll hear pilots say, "The FAA, We're not happy till your not happy!"

    Lets not give them the fuel they need to slam us (UAV Pilots) in the press. Fear mongering is a popular tactic to cause panic and knee jerk rules/regulations. I won't even get started on the permanent TFR over Washington DC!

    So as I step off my soap box, let me just say to my fellow UAV pilots. Please, use common sense and stay away from known areas of aviation traffic! Don't give 'them' what they need to kill our hobby!
     
  4. msinger

    Approved Vendor

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2014
    Messages:
    18,988
    Likes Received:
    5,590
    Location:
    US
    UAV pilots must stay below 400 feet AGL.
     
  5. Couchie

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2014
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Madisonville, KY
    Yes, they are supposed to. That only gives 100' of clearance between UAV's and aircraft if both are abiding by the rules. The problem is, how many videos are posted on Youtube that the general public can see of UAV's well above 400' and even above the cloud deck. I am afraid we as UAV pilots are shooting ourselves in the foot when we post these for the world to see!

    We've got to use common sense!
     
  6. justin00

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2014
    Messages:
    1,143
    Likes Received:
    25
    Location:
    Australia
    I've seen a number of people here talk about how they fly like 6 miles (whatever the limit is plus 1 mile) from an airport...
    Yeah sure.. you can do that... but why would you ? Just seems so stupid..... Drive for 10 mins in the other direction and fly some where else.
     
  7. Meta4

    Meta4 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    7,737
    Likes Received:
    3,451
    A lot f those sightings aren't multicopters at all. Don't get sucked in by unsubstantiated reports.
    Read the detail and you can tell.
     
  8. msinger

    Approved Vendor

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2014
    Messages:
    18,988
    Likes Received:
    5,590
    Location:
    US
    Meta4, right, we don't really know. There are many people on this forum who talk about flying at 400+ feet though. So, it's definitely a problem.
     
  9. doug86

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2014
    Messages:
    290
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Bi-Polar
    Great post. Candidate for a sticky
     
  10. Jetfixer

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2014
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    1
    I, too am going to call BS on a lot of these pilot reports. I'm not a pilot, but I am an aircraft mechanic and I go on a lot of test flights where I sit in the cockpit of everything from 737's to A330 and 767 widebodies. I can't count the times that ATC has warned us of traffic at such and such position and such and such altitude relative to our position, and even with 3 or 4 sets of eyes looking we may not be able to spot them. And these are other aircraft, not something the size of a Phantom. I find it very difficult, depending on conditions to even see my own Phantom at over 300 feet. You take your eyes off it for a second and it takes more than a few seconds to find it again. For a commercial pilot even on short final to say he saw and can identify a phantom at approach speed I find very hard to believe.
     
  11. Mopar Bob

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Connecticut, USA
     
  12. LandYachtMedia

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2013
    Messages:
    353
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Central North Carolina, USA
    One correction to that.. Standard approach is 160-165 knots.
     
  13. MapMaker53

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2014
    Messages:
    873
    Likes Received:
    162
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    It doesn't matter if pilots are seeing them or not. We all know for a fact that Phantoms and other drones are being flown in commercial airspace above 400 ft. It's ridiculous to argue whether pilots are seeing them or not. Personally, I HOPE they can see them!!! Wait til one winds up in a commercial jet turbine and forces an emergency landing. Then all hell is going to break loose and there will be no more flying drones as a hobby. It's just a matter of time, folks.
     
  14. flyNfrank

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2014
    Messages:
    4,220
    Likes Received:
    914
    Location:
    Indy, USA
    Well considering the number of UAS's "Unmanned Arial Systems" that has become airborne over the last year, world wide we've done pretty good with an even better track record. Especially with the number of 1st time hobbyist that have come along.

    As for a flying altitude, I'm also on the fence with what should and shouldn't be acceptable. I have flown to the clouds and in them when the ceiling was real low. I stopped doing that altogether after loosing my last quad. I see where there has been talk about equipping Planes and UAS's each with a device of some kind that allows both aircraft to communicate with each other to keep from having a collision. The FAA can set all the limits they want, people will still step over the line. But the communication device deal would be a way better route, and would help keep the airways more safe. Btw, the main reason I stopped going to higher altitudes, is due to not feeling like I can control my quad quick enough to get clear of a plane path. The 2ms or 4.5mph descent rate is dangerous when it comes to getting out the way.
     
  15. msinger

    Approved Vendor

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2014
    Messages:
    18,988
    Likes Received:
    5,590
    Location:
    US
    Your main reason should have been because it's not legal. People like you might make it hard for those of us who are following the rules to fly in the future.

    There is no fence. The FAA rules are quite clear.

    http://www.faa.gov/uas/publications/mod ... _operators

    Let's start fining them. They'll stop pretty quickly.
     
  16. flyNfrank

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2014
    Messages:
    4,220
    Likes Received:
    914
    Location:
    Indy, USA
    msinger, you have a bad attitude. Also what I said, is what I said. I don't need anyone attempting to change what I say. I'm not sure what it is that you think has been made into a law, but to my knowledge there currently is no laws placed on hobbyist aircraft.

    Regardless....it's the start of the weekend so let's enjoy it instead of getting someone upset.
     
  17. msinger

    Approved Vendor

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2014
    Messages:
    18,988
    Likes Received:
    5,590
    Location:
    US
    flyNfrank, you're right. I do have a bad attitude when people knowingly break laws and think it's okay to do so.

    The FAA controls everything from the ground up. That includes hobbyist aircraft. If you are flying anything in the air, you must comply with all FAA regulations.
     
  18. Larry L

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2014
    Messages:
    671
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    Copperas Cove, Texas
    I agree with msinger on Start leveeing pretty hefty fines. I am new to the hobby but I would like to eventually use mine for a new perspective to my photography. I was reading in my local paper this week, that they are planning on installing a new radar system at our local military airfield for uav avoidance. I feel if they can do that, it should be pretty easy to hone in on these people who are blatantly disregarding the rules that are in place for us.
    I know this is for the Predator & those type of uav,s but its a start.

    flyinfrank, this article is about the radar you are talking about but I think it is designed more for the larger military type of UAV's.
    http://kdhnews.com/fort_hood_herald/acr ... 8a9db.html
     
  19. flyNfrank

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2014
    Messages:
    4,220
    Likes Received:
    914
    Location:
    Indy, USA
    The article I read wasn't directed at any specific device in that write up. I'm guessing on this, but I would just about say the vPlus already has the means to communicate with another aircraft. It would just be a matter of adding it in the current software.

    As for regulating our quads, I would like to see the FAA get something solid in place. That way everyone in the sky has a better idea at least what is suppose to be taking place. The license suggestion might be where they go with it? I do know the New York Police department is sinking money into getting it enforced that they can just point something at something in the sky and at least know who it belongs to rather then forcing each of them to be landed and putting people through a process.
     
  20. msinger

    Approved Vendor

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2014
    Messages:
    18,988
    Likes Received:
    5,590
    Location:
    US
    The rules are extremely solid right now. I suspect most people either do not know where to find them or they refuse to believe/follow them after reading them.