Aircraft Band VHF Radio?

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Still love this thread and hate to contradict, but, it's splitting hairs again.
There's a difference between an individual's FCC license, and an aircraft's FCC license.

Thanks for doing follow up kenundrum.

Looks like you've got a great idea, as I've said before.
 
Sure scan all the local and know UNICOM aviation freqs... can't hurt if you're into it.

Don't transmit.

No pilot will be expecting comm. from some identified person on the ground. Until there is protocol I can't see the benefit here.
 
Just buy a scanner.

IF I even heard you, I would not respond back to you anyway.



What are you going to transmit?

" Fill in the location area traffic, Be advised kenundrum drone conducting drone activity from 400' to the surface...Fill in location traffic.."? :)
 
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Besides that, how would you know what frequency the low-flying traffic may be listening to? ....

You'd know what frequency to be listening on if you use the right maps for the area before flying.
Here in Australia, OZ Runways is an annual subscription phone app, that has a million and one very very useful features, and not the least of which is that it shows the CTAF (Common Traffic Advisory Frequency) for the area you're in. That is the frequency that would probably be the best to be listening on.
 
Thank you everyone for your views, i know that in my first post i was significantly oversimplifying things.
So- the licensing thing is not a big issue, as a restricted radiotelephone license is not difficult to obtain and costs about $65. However, i don't think that a license is actually required. If the FAA says that anything in the air is an aircraft (especially UAV/UAS), then i believe using a radio on the ground while controlling a UAV could qualify as operating 'aboard' the aircraft while operating domestically as noted in the below excerpt from http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=service_home&id=aircraft_stations

On October 25, 1996, the FCC released a Report and Order in WT Docket No. 96-82 eliminating the individual licensing requirement for all aircraft, including scheduled air carriers, air taxis and general aviation aircraft operating domestically. This means that you do not need a license to operate a two-way VHF radio, radar, or emergency locator transmitter (ELT) aboard aircraft operating domestically. All other aircraft radio stations must be licensed by the FCC either individually or by fleet.​

No, you can't call your drone an aircraft to use a ground-based aircraft comm.

Here's what the license Report and Order says:

In the Matter of )
)
Amendment of Parts 80 and 87 of the )
Commission's Rules to Permit Operation) WT Docket No. 96-82
of Certain Domestic Ship and Aircraft)
Radio Stations Without Individual Licenses)



REPORT AND ORDER

Adopted: October 18, 1996; Released: October 25, 1996
III. DISCUSSION
7. We find that it is in the public interest, convenience and necessity to remove the
individual licensing requirement for exempt vessels and aircraft. Individual licensing is not
needed for identification purposes. In the case of exempt vessels, the name of the vessel is
usually used for domestic identification, thus, FCC-issued call signs are not used for this
purpose. In the case of aircraft, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) assigns each aircraft
an identification number, which then becomes the FCC call sign.
As a result, the Commission's
individual licensing does not provide any distinct identification function.​

So, while the NPRM report doesn't specifically say it, this exemption from licensing only applies to FAA Registered aircraft. The NTSB has said that personal drones are aircraft only for the purpose of enforcing 91.13 Careless and Reckless.
 
You'd know what frequency to be listening on if you use the right maps for the area before flying.
Here in Australia, OZ Runways is an annual subscription phone app, that has a million and one very very useful features, and not the least of which is that it shows the CTAF (Common Traffic Advisory Frequency) for the area you're in. That is the frequency that would probably be the best to be listening on.
The CTAF is only used by pilots operating in the vicinity of an airport with a published CTAF.

Really, try listening to A/C communications and tell us how it can possibly help. If you aren't a pilot you won't understand most of what you hear. And it is extremely unlikely that you would have any warning on the radio that a low-flying A/C is even in your area.
 
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The best option to avoid other aircraft is not to fly in area that may have other aircraft flying in it.

Alternatively, we should all put our heads together and devise a way for ADS-B to be fitted to a Phantom!
 
The best option to avoid other aircraft is not to fly in area that may have other aircraft flying in it.

Alternatively, we should all put our heads together and devise a way for ADS-B to be fitted to a Phantom!
That would require several changes by the FAA. First, ADSB-Out uses the A/C identification in it's data packet, so if it isn't a registered A/C then there's no FAA "N" number. You want every personal drone to be registered? Second, ADSB is designed to work with ground based receivers wired into ATC. Yes, there is an aircraft to aircraft ADSB system called UAT (Universal Access Transceiver), but not all aircraft will be able to receive UAT mode. UAT mode is also called ADSB-In.

ADS-B Out — Automatic Dependent Surveillance Broadcast — is a periodic broadcast (every half second) of aircraft information (altitude, speed, position, etc.) to satellite and ground-based targets that allow other aircraft – if properly equipped – and ATC to see you. By 2020, ADS-B Out will be required equipment in all airspace that currently requires a transponder. Since most of the airspace in the US does not require a transponder, there will be a lot areas in the country that won't have ADSB ground stations.

Aircraft above FL180 must use Mode S (1090ES) and below FL180 May use UAT (978MHz) or Mode S. Almost all aircraft will have just the Mode S equipment. That is all that's mandated.

There's at least a dozen designs being developed by various entrepreneurs hoping to hit the jackpot by being the selected technology. Many commenters to the Part 107 NPRM want the small UAS aircraft to be equipped with ADSB, but there's a couple of big problems with that. The very real limitation is that your aircraft must be in range of an ADS-B ground station, which isn't specified to work below 1,000 ft. And which ADSB band do you operate in? In other words if you are using a 978 UAT it might not see a biz jet on approach who is using 1090ES. Or a 1090 transponder might not see 978 UATs in the same pattern.

SkyGuard makes a “portable” ADS-B Out unit. Weight isn’t specified, but it is 8”x3”x2” and only draws 5 Amps at 12V. And it’s only $1,500.

So, for the immediate future, ADSB on small UAS aircraft is hugely impractical.
 
Really, try listening to A/C communications and tell us how it can possibly help. If you aren't a pilot you won't understand most of what you hear. And it is extremely unlikely that you would have any warning on the radio that a low-flying A/C is even in your area.

Metro areas have common air-to-air channels (123.025 for helicopters, 122.750 for aircraft). They are used by aircraft when not in B, C, D airspace and not on a CTAF for a specific airport. The LA area air-to-air channels are busy enough that they have been divided up into regions.

These are the channels that I monitor. Quite useful. If I am at my testing ground and I hear "LAPD [xx], Dodgers, 1000, Northbound" I can expect a heli coming from the south at about 300ft AGL from where I am.

The best option to avoid other aircraft is not to fly in area that may have other aircraft flying in it.

If I could predict where other aircraft will be flying, this would be a non-issue. Since I can't, I need to take air traffic into consideration.
 
I still think a modified version of ADS-B is the way forwards.. new rules for UAS - built in callsigns (serial numbers) prefixed with UAS and lower power 1090mhz transmitters...
This would need to incorporate a n avoidance system for the drone only, like a one way TCAS, so the UAS gets out of the way.

Better that attempting to use a radio to tell another aircraft where you are.

This will come in time I guess... but I'm not holding my breath!
So we are back to this...

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Although I think this thread brings up some very important points regarding the proximity of aircraft to drones or other RC aircraft, transmitting on Aircraft VHF frequencies should be left to Pilots/ATC/Unicom etc.
If RC aircraft are being operated in proximity to an airport (with prior permission) a NOTAM is issued to pilots to advise them of the area relative to the airport and the altitudes being used.
And as much as I love this hobby if we're operating a drone in an area where there's a proximity to Aircraft, we should probably find another place to operate.
 
Gosh, I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here (or too late). Please let me know if I am.

I have a couple of factual answers for questions that have come up in this thread and one question:
  • I am a pilot who regularly flies over the Denver Metropolitan area for both pleasure and occasionally for work (as a camera operator on the news helicopter). During such flights, pilots actually identify themselves on 123.025Mhz using their call sign, altitude and then geographical reference which includes (and this will surprise some of you) the nearest major intersection. No joke:
    • Example: "Denver Area Traffic, Helicopter Sky-Two, Six-thousand fife hundred over I-25 and Hampden Blvd, southbound"
    • Example: "Denver Area Traffic, Cessna 2459Sierra, Seven-thousand fife hundred over Invesco Field, making right circuits around downtown"

  • Hundreds of DJI Quads have been (this year) registered with FAA. Those Quads have received an "N" number which is to be placed on the "Aircraft" when flown "for hire". Effectively, that gives the aircraft and respective operator a call-sign. However, what the initial aircraft call sign prefix to be used is unclear:
    • ("drone" N123AB; "unmanned" N123AB;"DJI" N123AB)?
Now here's my question:

Assuming you can get a radio that would reach the aircraft or ATC station you're calling without being blocked by some ground based object (VHF-AM tends to be a "line-of-sight" deal), why wouldn't you be able to use an "N" number that the FAA gives you upon registration to legally transmit your location data to the other traffic?

Thanks ahead of time for your replies.

-Angel
 
I listen to the local UNICOM frequency 122.8. The airport is towered but unmanned, the nearest ATC is on the other side of a mountain and cannot be reached via VHF anyway. All pilots in the valley monitor UNICOM. Pilots identify themselves typically by vector from the airport: "Cessna N123DD 7 miles south of (airfield) at 7000 feet (MSL) descending to land at (airfield)". If they are just flying around which is quite common in this very nice mostly uncontrolled and uncongested airspace they announce themselves periodically with "traffic" using local landmarks mostly.

As to the usefulness of a drone operator transmitting on UNICOM, obviously it depends on the circumstances. Within 5 miles of an airport, you require ATC coordination for hobby flying. If there is no ATC I am uncertain but as for me, use UNICOM, first to listen for <b>traffic</b> (give it plenty of listening) then make your own brief announcement of "traffic". It would require suitable licensing and also some education in the "lingo" of air traffic control. Might as well just finish the ground school and be ready for that drone test.

In other words, it seems to me that operating a drone for hobby purposes within 5 miles of an untowered airfield is legal <i>provided</i> you provide the same announcements as would be required of any airplane operating in the same airspace. Since you aren't landing it would be a simple "traffic" announcement (seems to me).

The airfield hosts a helicopter school and fixed-wing light aircraft school so on any nice day a dozen or so aircraft are flying around mostly without destination intentions. Just flying. It's also a great place for gliders.
 
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Okay,

just checking in here. We've successfully and safely conducted a couple of operations using our N number registration call sign and two-way radio. We were able to receive and make position reports from/to a couple of local helicopter pilots as they traversed the area. One of the pilots was tremendously grateful for our communication.

I'm not an attorney, but I don't see anything in my Section333 or any other reg restricting it. Contrary, it seems that this is a great idea and should be expanded.

Just make sure you are indeed registered with an N number and are using the proper terminology. You can learn the proper terminology from a certified flight instructor at a school near you when you start working on your Part107 certificate.

Hope this helps!

-Angel
 
I contacted a local FBO and discussed radio comms. My plan was to monitor unicom and on hearing an aircraft enter my area on a low approach, let them know of drone activity.

I was thinking something like:
"Aircraft at roosterville, be advised, drone aircraft 300 feet agl 2 miles south of roosterville actual"

Roosterville being the uncontrolled field near me.
Just a thought and the fbo guys thought it was a good idea. They also said I was the only person to ever contact them. Just my 2 cents. Let me know what you all think.
 
I contacted a local FBO and discussed radio comms. My plan was to monitor unicom and on hearing an aircraft enter my area on a low approach, let them know of drone activity.

I was thinking something like:
"Aircraft at roosterville, be advised, drone aircraft 300 feet agl 2 miles south of roosterville actual"

Roosterville being the uncontrolled field near me.
Just a thought and the fbo guys thought it was a good idea. They also said I was the only person to ever contact them. Just my 2 cents. Let me know what you all think.
I'm a part 61.licensed pilot, still have my original radio telephone license and all my birds have N numbers. IMHO, neither the FAA or the FCC are going to accept that a ground transmitter is an ok variation on a station 'license' associated with a registered aircraft. And do we really need the distraction of trying to operate a radio while we are flying our birds? I keep a Bearcat Sportcat portable scanner with me that is tuned to the local Unicom a CTAF fregs and just listen in the background. When I'm flying in the area of my authorization, I also have to keep a ear on my cell phone in case ATC tries to contact me! Remember, it's our responsibility to get out of, literally, everyone else's way, so keeping good SA and being ready to 'duck' if the situation calls for it is enough to keep me busy!
 

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