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After market batteries 20C vs 60C

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by boat chaser, Jul 4, 2013.

  1. boat chaser

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    Hi all,

    I am using aftermarket batteries that are exactly the same as the original phantom batteries besides the C rating. Just wondering if the higher C rating (60C) is bad for my phantom, or if these batteries are ok to use. I have had no problems with them so far.

    any answers appreciated.
     
  2. freelanceshots

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    Not bad at all. Your phantom esc's will only pull what they need. In the long run a 60C battery will out last the lower C rated batteries. As lipo batteries age their cells gain resistance and the C rating drops. The downside to the higher C rated batteries is cost. Don't confuse continuous pull with burst rating. Most lipos are up to 100C burst but much lower for continuous.
     
  3. boat chaser

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    Thanks, that's good to hear. I am using Revolectrix diamond label. $35 AUD fit awesome. They are slightly shorter than the standard battery but a little wider. Had no probs yet.
     
  4. mroberts

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    I've been happiest with my Turnigy Nano-Tech 35-70C - seem to marginally outlast the stock battery and noticeably beat a "Redback" 20C. They're the cheapest of all of them too.
     
  5. denodan

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    The only problem with higher C rated batteries is they are heavier. The higher the C rating the heavier the battery, and for the Phantom your better off keeping the weight down. Heavier means less flight time, motors, bearings work harder, causing more heat and wear. So even though c60's are fine, it's just an overkill and spending extra money for little gain, and less flight time than the standard.

    Your batteries may last longer then standard, but the extra weight will will off set any advantages of higher C rated batteries.
     
  6. boat chaser

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    Thanks for that
     
  7. tanasit

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    I tested 6 different batteries with various C rates and found that the higher C rate ones can hold the Phantom in hover more once the red warning led comes on. However this depends on your voltage setting but for mine with the 20C pack, when the red flash comes on it has 10-20 seconds hovering time and even if you push the throttle to the top, it will still come down. But for the 65-130C pack, it will give you a good extra 45 seconds after the red flash with manageable throttle control for attitude hold. And this may make a difference for me when I fly over the water and forget to check the timer! ;)
     
  8. denodan

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    It may also mean, your depleting your battery voltage further, risking damage to your battery. Run it to far when it is flashing red you will damage your battery, as it will start going below mini voltage. But using a lower C rating you gain extra flight time. Would rather have an extra 1-2 mins flying time than risk the red flashing warning for longer risking your batteries health. If your getting 45 seconds then your voltage could be getting low as to start the damage your battery. it's not worth the risk or shorting your battery life.

    Your better off going for lower C rating battery, aqnd longer flight times rather then push your battery to it's limits. It will still bugger higher rating C batteries as quick as lower C rating if you push it.

    If you want advanced warning your battery is getting low, your better off adjusting the battery warning setting.
     
  9. freelanceshots

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    The phantom doesn't really need a high C rated battery 20 to 30 is plenty for the current esc and motor pull. A lipo battery can go as low as 3.2 volts per a cell and bare minimal is 3 volts. Your battery isn't going to blow up if it get taken to 3 volts under load for just a moment but its not recommended to do it all the time. My phantom's battery low voltage cutoff sequence was set pretty high as standard. I went in and lowered them from the initial settings to 1st 3.6 - 2nd 3.40 volts as the final cutoff. When my phantom crashed into the water after entering into the 1st protection mode it was just a perfect circumstance for me not to see the red blinking red light and the distance it was away from me to get it back. Doing it again i'd get the hobby partz LV battery monitor or at least the buzzer low voltage device that been seen here on the forum. I'd also leave my first LV warning at 3.7/6 volts and the last one where the phantom just drops out of the sky at 3.2 volts. Of course when I saw the first red blinks I'd start to bring it home but the extra time between the 2 is more of a safety zone. I'd much rather of been harder on my 20 dollar battery then loose my 1000 dollar phantom in the lake. All I needed was 15 more seconds and I'd still have my multirotor.
     
  10. denodan

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    Well said, and like I said, to go 60c is a total waste of money, the higher the C rating the heavier the battery, lower flight times. I would rather use 20C and get max flight time, then waste my money on a higher C rated battery and get less Flight time. The only advantage of having a much higher C rating, is your battery may last more charge cycles, but much less flight times mean more charges,more wear and tear on your Phantom, so may not be a good advantage having a C60 battery. I could possibly buy 2-3 20C batteries for the same price as one 60C with the advantage of much better flight times.

    I have no problem with my 20C batteries.

    If you keep going below 3.2 volts, per cell, or even do it once, you shorten the life of your battery. Also Never leave them fully charged over night, that will also destroy them.
     
  11. mroberts

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    So what have people found are the lightest 20+C batteries?
     
  12. jumanoc

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    I use this, great weight-size lower price:

    [​IMG]
     
  13. tanasit

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    There is a diminishing return rule involved here. If you keep the pack capacity under 2600 mAh or so, the higher C rate pack always yield longer flight time! Yes the Phantom will fly fine with the stock 20C pack but if you have the heavier Phantom with video gears and you want to INCREASE the flight time, you must use higher capacity pack and 20C is plenty for the job.

    In my test, I set the FS voltage HIGHER than default, so even if I get the flashing red and even I fly until it lands itself, I still have more than 20% capacity remain in the pack. This is the most important practice with not just our Phantom but any other RC models. If you just start, use the gadget below to check the pack right after the flight:

    http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... ecker.html

    It is back order now but you can find the gadget on *bay too.

    Note: But using a lower C rating you gain extra flight time.
    In general this is not true, yes flying model is weight sensitive but like I said earlier for the Phantom if you keep the pack capacity under 2500 mAh, then the higher C rate pack will give you more flight time, especially if you fly it hard or in windy situation. I tested them by hovering in the living room and the higher C rate yielded the longest flight time. And the pack is :

    Turnigy nano-tech A-SPEC 2200mah 3S 65~130C Lipo Pack
    http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... _Pack.html

    I did try the 3000 mAh pack and the flight time was less than any 2200 mAh packs. ;)
     
  14. denodan

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    I was under the impression, if you are using a 2200Mah 20C battery, and a 2200Mah 60C battery, they will not last longer at all. The Phantom will only pull as much as it can handle, both will last the same time, but due to the extra weight of the higher C rating batteries it will not last as long.

    Always used to be the case flying RC Helicopters. If your using a higher MAH rating then your battery will give you extra flight time, extra C rating will not.

    As some batteries are better quality batteries than others it is possible one brand will last longer then another, but both batteries of the same MAH rating will last about the same time. Sometimes, I think batteries can be over, or underspec, and the MAH rating may not always be what the battery is stating.

    But as a general rule the C rating does not determine the length of your flight time, but a higher MAH battery will last longer.

    Are all your batteries the same MAH rating or different? A 2500Mah battery is going to last longer with flight time than a 2200Mah. The C rating does not determine flight time, only the Mah does, but once again also get heavier.


    http://www.helifreak.com/archive/index. ... 52205.html

    http://www.rcdiscuss.com/archive/index. ... 14bfd5165a

    Also the higher the C rating, the longer the charge time. If your using extra electronics, or using your Phantom in manual mode, where demands are higher, then a higher C rating will help, otherwise your just wasting your money.

    Also what I have learned about Lipo batteries, what is written on the battery, may not be totally correct. Your battery may say it is 60C, but in real terms maybe lower than this or higher, same as the Mah rating, what you see is not always what your get.

    Which may explain why some of your batteries some are lasting longer than others of your using the same mah rating. Just because it says it is 2500Mah battery does not always mean it is. You cannot always trust what is written.

    I am into lasers and this is always the case, some are over spec, some under and same goes for batteries. You can have 6 different brands and all the same rating, but all may well run different lengths of times. it All depends on how accurate info written on the battery is, so do not assume if it is a 2200Mah thats what your getting, it could either be higher or lower then this. The same as the C rating. A C60 battery could in fact be lower, or higher than this. Often the cheaper batteries can inflate the figures to sell more and make them sound better then what they are, or make you think your getting more for your money, but could well be poor batteries.

    Just don't trust what is written on the battery.
     
  15. tanasit

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    I agree with all you said about the actual specifications VS what written on the pack.
    But the only issue is the C rating may not have the effect on the flight time if the power required of the craft is not marginally covered by the pack. This also means if you fly your Phantom or helicopter leisurely with no rapid climb up or fighting the wind, the higher C rate pack will not help. As for the FS setting in Phantom, if you set it such that your 20C pack has 20% of the capacity left the red flash will come on soon so it is at 440 mAh. Now for the sake of argument, let's assume that the Phantom requires 8 amp to hover, so 440 mAh at 20C = 8.8 amp if you start to climb, the red flash will come on right away with the 20C pack, not so with the higher C rate ones. Meanwhile the 60C rate will give 440 x 60 = 26.4 amp, so if we take away the auto landing because of the low voltage, say at 300 mAh left, the 20C pack will only put out 6 amp, which is not enough to hover but the 60C will give out 18 amp which will keep your Phantom aloft for 30 seconds or so.

    The car guys is luckier because the weight penalty is not as much as flying models, so for the 4 minutes race, they can calculate with great accuracy so that once his car passed the finish line, it came to the very end of the throttle response.

    When I did the test ALL of the packs are 2200 mAh and the weight differences are minimal so I only want to see which pack give me a constant flight time. As for the 2500 mAh pack I had only 1 then I like how it performs I bought 2 more.
     
  16. denodan

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    But you forget, if the higher c rating has higher amp rating, your Phantom will not use it. Your Phantom will only pull what power it needs only, so if your Phantom is using 4 amps, etc, then that is all it will pull.

    At 20C I can go fast high, and no red light comes on, and get over 10mins on Standard Phantom battery, which is the best to use, because the battery fits a lot better as the wires are thinner, they are much better to use in my view.

    You cannot push anymore power, or amps into the Phantom than it can use, and will only pull what it needs. To have a much higher C rated battery is a total waste of money for the little gain you get, and has always been said in the RC Helicopter world, and a hei will need more power than a quad copter will.

    If your running extra things that require power, or flying in manual mode, then any extra benefits of a higher C rated battery is a waste of money.

    I just don't see the sense in wasting your money going for C60 batteries, and all I have read also says its a waste of money. And those 2 forums with helis are just to examples why a higher c rated battery is a waste of money.

    Normal flying will the Phantom will never require more then 20C, and if your Phantom is coming on red straight away with going up fast, then your battery settings are wrong. I am happy with 20C for the Phantom, it's all it needs, and anymore unless your manually flying and maybe need extra juice, which the higher C battery can give, or running extra items that are using more power, then it is totally pointless wasting your money on more costly batteries. The Phantom if it does not need it cannot use the extra Amps or benefits of a higher C rated battery. You cannot push more amps than the Phantom can handle, and if you could would damage the Phantom.

    You will have only marginal gains by using a higher C rated battery, but the gains are small and not worth wasting your money over. If you want gains then just adjust your battery warning settings. But do not go below 3.2 volt per cell. Sure the 20C batteries are warm to touch, but not that warm to indicate they are under stress, and the Phantom handles 20C just fine, so no need to waste your money.

    The only reason for a higher C rated battery is aggressive flying and unless you fly your Phantom in Manual mode, where you can do flips and fly much faster and much more aggressive then your Phantom will not make use of the higher C rating. The Phantom is not getting pushed with the automatics on to justify a higher c rating. So what's the point?

    I think if your batteries are below the c rating stated on your battery, you would soon know, and one of the reasons I would rather stick with the standard battery, you know it is 20C as it's made for the Phantom, and much easier to fit.
     
  17. Gizmo3000

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    I believe I read that higher C batteries will generally have a much longer lifetime
    and perhaps they might prevent low voltage warning from kicking in prematurely. (by a small amount)
     
  18. denodan

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    Mine has never had low voltage kick in prematurely, and yes the higher C rated battery has the longer lifetime, but the disadvantages out weight the advantages, like higher cost, heavier battery, less flight time, because the battery is heavier, lower motor and bearing life, so you may have a longer life battery, it is harder on your Phantom, and think the rule of thumb with RC helicopters is only get a battery with not much more C rating then you need. It depends on how how hard you push your Phantom, but with all the Automatics on, it's not really getting pushed.

    Also a Higher C rated battery takes much longer to charge. I love the Standard Phantom batteries, they fit easier than the other batteries. I have a couple of Turnigy batteries and are a very tight fit compared to the standard battery.
     
  19. tanasit

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    In the beginning I wanted to test just the different propellers and see which one gives the LONGEST flight time. With the stock battery fully charged and let it rest for 10 minutes for the voltage to settle down and start the timer from lift off until it landed itself by hovering in my living room. I also recorded the sound level and the results are below:

    Prop time (min:sec.) sound (dB)
    Stock 12:48 83
    Graupner 12:40 84 adjust throttle a few times
    GWS 13:39 83
    MasterAS 8:33 84.5
    APC 10x3.8 cuttip 13:54 84
    Gemfan 9x4.7 14.06 86 stable, hold atti well
    APC 9x4.5 oscillation!
    FC 3-9x4.5 11:31 92 adjust throttle 2 times
    FC 9x4.5 11:42 90 stable, hold atti well
    Carbon 9x7 13.29 90 slight oscillation (´âáreduce Pitch & roll to 80%)

    Then I wanted to see if higher rate pack will give a longer flight time.

    Gemfan 9x4.7 14.22 86 stable, hold atti well Nano-Tech A-Spec 65-130C

    Yes it did but the more interesting part is when the RED flash came on. Note also that I set the FS voltage 0.1 volt HIGHER than default because I want to make sure that I wouldn't drain my pack too far, which I confirmed by using the gadget below and it always reads more than 20%. With the stock 20C pack, once the red flash came on you'd have about 20-30 seconds before it landed but you would have tough time holding its altitude even with the throttle stick at the TOP. At this very moment (late RED flashing), when the higher C rate acted like a champ and the throttle stick still worked like normal (up = Phantom up) and this normal act lasted me a good additional 30 seconds!!!

    Like I mentioned earlier, I fly over the water body sometime and yes I also used the kitchen timer for every flight and I believe that there will be a time when the red flash comes on BEFORE my timer for unknown reason and my Phantom is hovering in the middle of the lake..........

    Scene 1: with stock pack.......Phantom dunkkkkkkk
    Scene 2: with 65C pack, fast forward to the bank, land my Phantom on the solid ground, remove the 65C pack and give it a BIG kiss. Well with this extreme case example, the higher C rate has a place somewhere in the RC world even with the flying models that are weight sensitive. I don't consider this a waste of money at all. And if you check the hobby stores, they still offer more higher C rate packs then before.

    http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... ecker.html


    Final note: for general use of Phantom, the stock pack works fine so now I have 6 packs of 20C at 2200 mAh, 2 of 65C packs and 2 of 2500 mAh packs that I can choose to use depending on where I fly.

    This long post of mine only want to point out that the higher C rate pack will do nothing when the pack is full, half used or 25% left as long as the current required of your Phantom is LESS than the remain capacity of the pack can deliver BUT eventually there will be a point when the constant current required will be equal to the ever so decreasing current supply by the pack and finally the pack with lower C rate will fail to deliver enough current whereas the higher C rate pack is still capable of doing the job and perhaps save your day.
     
  20. denodan

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    How long do they take to charge over the normal 20C? I read that a higher C rating will take much longer to charge?

    I Still think a 65C rated battery is an over kill for any flying craft and a waste of money, and not needed from everything I have read on RC helicopters and their Forums and even owning RC Helicopters found the higher C rating a waste of money for the little extra flight time you get, the MAH rating makes the biggest difference and what you should be going for.

    Higher C rating will benefit RC car owners, or ground vehicles, but not aircraft. If your only getting 30 secs or so longer if that, for the price your paying it's not worth it, and would be rather included if you want greater warning is lower your battery warnings in the assist software, every bit of weight effects the way the Phantom flies and reduces flight time, so I prefer mine almost stock. and get over 10mins and over have 20 secs, or so with the battery indicator flashing a constant red.

    Adding weight will drop this, so if you have extra stuff on your Phantom, then taking it off makes a difference.

    The only thing I have added was Carbon Fiber blades and has increased my flight time slightly on standard battery, and flying your phantom over water is like playing with fire.

    However if you choose a higher C rated battery, and like flying over water and risking your Phantom, then fine, after all they are my opinions and what works for you is fine.

    I find the Phantom flies it best and longest times by being lighter. I even got the Go Pro 3 frame, which is slightly lighter then the Stock Go Pro one that comes with the Phantom.

    But would be interested in how long it takes you to charge your higher rated batteries?

    However what works for you is just fine. We are all different and have different needs.